Salvation by works

[Joe]

The revealed Word of God is clear that no one is saved by appealing to their good works. Jewish people of Jesus' day perished "For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom 10:3-4)

Salvation by works is an appeal to one's own righteousness.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and reject it placing their trust in self over God.
• They are the ones who seek to justify themselves with an appeal to their good deeds. Often times at the condemnation of others.
• Jesus spoke about them, "anyone who hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned." (Jn 3:20)

Salvation by faith is the appeal of a sin conscious guilty person calling out to Jesus Christ in belief to save him.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and obey by changing their mind and believing; that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them, instructing people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
• They are the ones who believe they are guilty before God of their sins. They appeal to Jesus Christ in belief, trusting God to justify them.
• Jesus spoke about them, "whoever practices truth [does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]." (Jn 3:21)

Biblically, salvation by works is not when one responds to God as instructed to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Their appeal to Jesus Christ is by faith, which comes from hearing the Good News of God in Christ. They are saved by God's grace when they believed. They take no credit for it. Their salvation is a gift of God. Salvation was not a reward for the good things they may have done, and they certainly don't boast they were saved by their goodness. They trust God to make them right with Him.

God Bless

 

[eternomade]

Salvation was accomplished on the cross. To make repentance and faith a condition to be saved, rather than a fruit of already being saved(By Christ's shed blood on Calvary) is no different than those in Galatians who were requiring circumcision.

The free will Gospel is also condemned in Galatians 4:

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



Cast out the bondwoman! The bondwoman was an attempt to have Isaac born, but it was according to the flesh, not God! Quit going into the tent with Hagar to cause birth!

 

[preacher4truth]

The revealed Word of God is clear that no one is saved by appealing to their good works. Jewish people of Jesus' day perished "For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom 10:3-4)

Salvation by works is an appeal to one's own righteousness.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and reject it placing their trust in self over God.
• They are the ones who seek to justify themselves with an appeal to their good deeds. Often times at the condemnation of others.
• Jesus spoke about them, "anyone who hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned." (Jn 3:20)

Yes, the above is witnessed in the error of conditional election. Those who embrace this error turn salvation and election into a reward, or merit, and thereby destroy biblical grace.

Salvation by faith is the appeal of a sin conscious guilty person calling out to Jesus Christ in belief to save him.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and obey by changing their mind and believing; that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them, instructing people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
• They are the ones who believe they are guilty before God of their sins. They appeal to Jesus Christ in belief, trusting God to justify them.
• Jesus spoke about them, "whoever practices truth [does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]." (Jn 3:21)

John 3:21 isn't a how to get saved text, sorry. When a person confesses belief, it proves they are ALREADY a believer. John 5:24 shows they already have eternal life and that belief is evidence of conversion and regeneration, not the cause.

Biblically, salvation by works is not when one responds to God as instructed to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

A person who repents and believes. How do we know they repent and believe? They tell us, which means it's already taken place.

Their appeal to Jesus Christ is by faith, which comes from hearing the Good News of God in Christ. They are saved by God's grace when they believed. They take no credit for it. Their salvation is a gift of God. Salvation was not a reward for the good things they may have done, and they certainly don't boast they were saved by their goodness. They trust God to make them right with Him.

God Bless

What do you think about the topic "unmerited?" I believe salvation is umerited. In fact I think there may be a member here with that moniker. Wondering what you think about all of that?

 

[fltom]

Yes, the above is witnessed in the error of conditional election. Those who embrace this error turn salvation and election into a reward, or merit, and thereby destroy biblical grace.

John 3:21 isn't a how to get saved text, sorry. When a person confesses belief, it proves they are ALREADY a believer. John 5:24 shows they already have eternal life and that belief is evidence of conversion and regeneration, not the cause.

A person who repents and believes. How do we know they repent and believe? They tell us, which means it's already taken place.

What do you think about the topic "unmerited?" I believe salvation is umerited. In fact I think there may be a member here with that moniker. Wondering what you think about all of that?

One of your peers affirmed salvation is condition

Scripture shows salvation is conditional

election is just chosing

God choses to save those who believe according to his word

 

[Joe]

Salvation was accomplished on the cross. To make repentance and faith a condition to be saved, rather than a fruit of already being saved(By Christ's shed blood on Calvary)

The bible declares that propitiation was accomplished on the cross for everyone. And it is by faith that one receives it.

• "Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith"
• "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world"
• "crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

You stated one is saved prior to repentance and belief; that these actions are fruits of already being saved. You must realize that the bible records the Lord and His Apostles preaching and teaching one must repent and believe to saved. Here are just five of many.

Please notice the bold underlined words for they describe an action one must do to receive the death of Jesus as the propitiation for one's sins

• I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”(Joh 8:24)
• Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mar 1:14-15)
• Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:37-38)
• "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
• If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

As one can read, repentance and faith are required for one to receive salvation from God. If they were fruits as you say, you would think the Lord and His Apostles wouldn't be disingenuous by stating one has to repent and believe to receive.

is no different than those in Galatians who were requiring circumcision.

The free will Gospel is also condemned in Galatians 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Cast out the bondwoman! The bondwoman was an attempt to have Isaac born, but it was according to the flesh, not God! Quit going into the tent with Hagar to cause birth!

There is no free will gospel. There is only the Good News of Christ, and in order to receive the Good News of salvation, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ to receive. It is laid out for you above. There is no denying it if one wants to stay true to the bible.

The Galatians were being led into Judaism and right standing with God by observing the Law of Moses under the old covenant. That is biblically salvation by works. That is nothing like obeying God who "commands all people everywhere to repent." and "it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe"...This is biblically salvation by faith under the New Covenant.

"yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." (Gal 2:16)

Notice the bold and underlined portion of the passage above. They believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith. No justification happens until one believes in Jesus Christ.

God Bless

 

[preacher4truth]

The bible declares that propitiation was accomplished on the cross for everyone.

No, sorry it doesn't. Propitiation made alive those dead in trespasses, raised them in Him, seated them with Him in the heavenlies, forgave their trespasses, and saved them by grace while dead in sins. Ephesians and Colossians 2. That didn't happen for "everyone."

You're incorrect from the beginning.

 

[Joe]

nt

 

[Joe]

No, sorry it doesn't. Propitiation made alive those dead in trespasses, raised them in Him, seated them with Him in the heavenlies, forgave their trespasses, and saved them by grace while dead in sins. Ephesians and Colossians 2. That didn't happen for "everyone."

You're incorrect from the beginning.

P4T, did you actually read the quotes provided from the bible? It is biblically indisputable that the Lord's death on the cross was the propitiation for our sins and must be received by faith. And that God gave Him as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, for everyone, that He died for all.

What do you do with this evidence? What am I missing? Does it take a secret decoder ring to understand them? They are clearly understandable and need no explaining.

• "Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith"
• "by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone"
• "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
• "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people."
• "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world."
• "We are ruled by the love of Christ, now that we recognize that one man died for everyone, which means that they all share in his death. He died for all, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but only for him who died and was raised to life for their sake."
• "God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
• "the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all"
• "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent"

One receives God's salvation by faith. It is upon believing that one is "made alive those dead in trespasses, raised them in Him, seated them with Him in the heavenlies, forgave their trespasses, and saved them by grace while dead in sins.".

• I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”(Joh 8:24
• Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mar 1:14-15)
• Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:37-38)
• "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
• If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Question: Why do we preach preacher4Truth? This is why...For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.” But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!” But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “LORD, who has believed our message?” So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ." (Rom 10:13-17)

One must first hear and then believe God's testimony that Jesus died for their sins and arose for their life. No faith, no salvation.

God Bless

 

[TibiasDad]

No, sorry it doesn't. Propitiation made alive those dead in trespasses, raised them in Him, seated them with Him in the heavenlies, forgave their trespasses, and saved them by grace while dead in sins. Ephesians and Colossians 2. That didn't happen for "everyone."

You're incorrect from the beginning.

2Cor 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Christ's death, turned aside the wrath of God so that God could justly cease holding men's sin against them and thus offer grace and forgiveness to those who believe. He, through Christ, reconciled the world to himself, he can now look at us in love rather than wrath. No one is saved yet, no sins are forgiven, because the message of reconciliation needs to go out. Thus, we who have believed, have been given the message of reconciliation, and cry out to all "on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

All who believe; all who let themselves be reconciled to God by faith in Christ's work on the cross are are then saved. Yes, the grace of God through Christ's death all happened while we were yet dead in our sins, and this, according to Paul, was an act that was effected for "the world" to be reconciled to God. But no one is saved until the message of reconciliation is preached, the message is personally believed, and the grace of God in forgiveness of sin is received from God.


Doug

 

[Joe]

2Cor 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Christ's death, turned aside the wrath of God so that God could justly cease holding men's sin against them and thus offer grace and forgiveness to those who believe. He, through Christ, reconciled the world to himself, he can now look at us in love rather than wrath. No one is saved yet, no sins are forgiven, because the message of reconciliation needs to go out. Thus, we who have believed, have been given the message of reconciliation, and cry out to all "on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

All who believe; all who let themselves be reconciled to God by faith in Christ's work on the cross are are then saved. Yes, the grace of God through Christ's death all happened while we were yet dead in our sins, and this, according to Paul, was an act that was effected for "the world" to be reconciled to God. But no one is saved until the message of reconciliation is preached, the message is personally believed, and the grace of God in forgiveness of sin is received from God.


Doug

Nice, simple explanation brother! Very edifying!

God Bless

 

[TibiasDad]

The revealed Word of God is clear that no one is saved by appealing to their good works. Jewish people of Jesus' day perished "For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom 10:3-4)

Salvation by works is an appeal to one's own righteousness.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and reject it placing their trust in self over God.
• They are the ones who seek to justify themselves with an appeal to their good deeds. Often times at the condemnation of others.
• Jesus spoke about them, "anyone who hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned." (Jn 3:20)

Salvation by faith is the appeal of a sin conscious guilty person calling out to Jesus Christ in belief to save him.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and obey by changing their mind and believing; that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them, instructing people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
• They are the ones who believe they are guilty before God of their sins. They appeal to Jesus Christ in belief, trusting God to justify them.
• Jesus spoke about them, "whoever practices truth [does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]." (Jn 3:21)

Biblically, salvation by works is not when one responds to God as instructed to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Their appeal to Jesus Christ is by faith, which comes from hearing the Good News of God in Christ. They are saved by God's grace when they believed. They take no credit for it. Their salvation is a gift of God. Salvation was not a reward for the good things they may have done, and they certainly don't boast they were saved by their goodness. They trust God to make them right with Him.

God Bless

My position regarding works is this:

God is never obligated to do anything for us by anything we do! Nothing we can do can ever cause God to do something that he doesn’t want to do.

We have sinned against him; he is the offended party and we are the ones offending him. If a husband cheats on his wife, and she finds out about it a boots him out, the husband can do all he can to try and reconcile his broken relationship with his wife; buy flowers, candy, cards, kneel at her doorstep crying and begging her to give him another chance. But if she is not willing to reconcile with him, his efforts are in vain!

She is the offended party! She alone holds the power of reconciliation in her hands, and nothing can obligate her to let him back into a relationship with her.

She must desire and allow him back into the relationship; nothing he can do can cause her to necessarily forgive him and let him back into her life.

This is even more true of God, for there is no emotional manipulation that affects him. He is the offended party, and he holds all the power and all the proverbial Aces and wildcards to boot. Regardless of what we may do or want, if he’s not willing or desirous to reconcile, we are up the creek without a paddle!

But thanks be to God, from Genesis 3 on, he has stated that he is willing to reconcile the broken relationship with mankind, his creation. That where sun abounds, his grace abounds even more! Grace is greater than all our sin! We can never deserve his love and mercy. God has done nothing because our efforts, in and of themselves, have necessitated him to give in to us. The is no wrestling move that we can put God under submission to our demands. No corner into which we can back him with no escape.

If God cannot be obligated by man, then all the “works” in the world are meaningless and worthless! Salvation can only be by grace, and that grace is accessed only through and by faith in his promises.


Doug

 

[Ladodgers6]

The revealed Word of God is clear that no one is saved by appealing to their good works. Jewish people of Jesus' day perished "For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom 10:3-4)

Salvation by works is an appeal to one's own righteousness.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and reject it placing their trust in self over God.
• They are the ones who seek to justify themselves with an appeal to their good deeds. Often times at the condemnation of others.
• Jesus spoke about them, "anyone who hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned." (Jn 3:20)

Salvation by faith is the appeal of a sin conscious guilty person calling out to Jesus Christ in belief to save him.

• These people hear the Good News of Christ and obey by changing their mind and believing; that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them, instructing people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
• They are the ones who believe they are guilty before God of their sins. They appeal to Jesus Christ in belief, trusting God to justify them.
• Jesus spoke about them, "whoever practices truth [does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]." (Jn 3:21)

Biblically, salvation by works is not when one responds to God as instructed to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Their appeal to Jesus Christ is by faith, which comes from hearing the Good News of God in Christ. They are saved by God's grace when they believed. They take no credit for it. Their salvation is a gift of God. Salvation was not a reward for the good things they may have done, and they certainly don't boast they were saved by their goodness. They trust God to make them right with Him.

God Bless

Well Joe, you start off correctly then you misrepresent our position, I'll show you where. You make a dichotomy of two types of people here, one type of people who posit the notion they can by their own good intentions and hard work merit for themselves a golden ticket not from a chocolate bar, but by their home made pie made by their own baking essentials. The other though hears the Gospel then believes.

Why such difference from one to the other? Why can't the first person have the same thing happen to them? How does one go from the first person to the other person? I am not trying to trap you into a gotcha question, but honestly asking how does this happen. One believes while the other does not? Is there any difference in them, that one possesses a little goodness while the other does not? Is there is quality difference between them? Are they hearing two different Gospels preached? I have ponder upon this question for a long time, and I heard them all.

Until, I read, researched, Classical Covenant Theology, which is the soil that holds all Biblical teaching together. God has a Plan of Salvation [which reminds, if you get a chance read B.B. Warfield book Plan of Salvation]. Without this Plan there will be no Salvation, no Christ, no Forgiveness, no Cross, no Resurrection, no Justification or Sanctification for the ungodly.

I am going to share an excerpt from one of my favorite books, Sacred Bond by Michael Brown & Zach Keele. And I hope you take the time to read and ponder upon it for a while, and it's okay to ask questions, provoking questions is good, not a bad thing.

The Gospel of John. John provides ample evidence of the Covenant of Redemption in His Gospel. He records Christ's many references to the work he came to accomplish, work that the Father assigned to him. For example, in chapter 4, when speaking to his disciples, he says,

"My food is to do the will of him who sent means to accomplish his work" (4:34). Then in chapter 5, when speaking to the Jewish leaders, he states, "I can do nothing on my own will but the will of him who sent me...For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me...I have come in my Father's name" (5:30,36,43).

Likewise, in 6:36-40, when speaking to the multitudes, he says, "But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me."

And in 10:18, when speaking to the Pharisees, announces, "No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority today it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." These comments by Jesus clearly reveal his mission on earth as work the Father commanded him to accomplish. In 10:18, Christ says he received a charge from the Father. The Greek word used here indicates a mandate or a command to fulfill. This mandate required him to accomplish redemption for those whom the Father gave to him by actively obeying the Father's commands, which included going to the cross to lay down his life as the propitiation for their sins.

Christ makes this most clear in his High Priestly Prayer prayed on the night before his crucifixion:

"Father, the hour has come, glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him...I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world.(John 17:1-6).

Throughout this prayer, Jesus refers to those whom the Father "gave" to him (that is, the elect in Christ) at least eight times. His mission was to save them through his obedience to the will of the Father. The next day, as he hung on the Cross and suffered the wrath of God for the sins of those whom the Father gave to him, his last words were, "IT IS FINISHED" (19:30). What is finished? The work the Father gave to him to do before the foundation of the world.

Taken together, Jesus' comments in John's Gospel about the work he came to accomplish reveal a mutual, predetermined plan between the Father and the Son made in eternity past.

I'll leave you with this, and hope you read it, and don't just dismiss it, because I am a Calvinist. But if you want the truth, and that's all that matters, then read it. And give me your thoughts.​

 

[Reformedguy]

One of your peers affirmed salvation is condition

Scripture shows salvation is conditional

election is just chosing

God choses to save those who believe according to his word

The covenants are conditional as well. Are you able to "do this and live" as our Lord put it??

 

[fltom]

The covenants are conditional as well. Are you able to "do this and live" as our Lord put it??

Keep going

 

[Reformedguy]

Keep going

When my question is answered. Are you able to uphold your end of the covenant? Yes or no?

 

[fltom]

When my question is answered. Are you able to uphold your end of the covenant? Yes or no?

You never asked me any questions?

 

[Reformedguy]

You never asked me any questions?

Are you able to uphold your end of the covenant? Which is conditional.

 

[fltom]

Are you able to uphold your end of the covenant? Which is conditional.

With the Spirit's help yes

 

[Reformedguy]

With the Spirit's help yes

What happened to your free will? You should just be able to choose to "do this and live".

Also, one slip up and you are a covenant breaker. There are no second chances. So just how does the Spirits help work?

 

[Joe]

My position regarding works is this:

God is never obligated to do anything for us by anything we do! Nothing we can do can ever cause God to do something that he doesn’t want to do.

We have sinned against him; he is the offended party and we are the ones offending him. If a husband cheats on his wife, and she finds out about it a boots him out, the husband can do all he can to try and reconcile his broken relationship with his wife; buy flowers, candy, cards, kneel at her doorstep crying and begging her to give him another chance. But if she is not willing to reconcile with him, his efforts are in vain!

She is the offended party! She alone holds the power of reconciliation in her hands, and nothing can obligate her to let him back into a relationship with her.

She must desire and allow him back into the relationship; nothing he can do can cause her to necessarily forgive him and let him back into her life.

This is even more true of God, for there is no emotional manipulation that affects him. He is the offended party, and he holds all the power and all the proverbial Aces and wildcards to boot. Regardless of what we may do or want, if he’s not willing or desirous to reconcile, we are up the creek without a paddle!

But thanks be to God, from Genesis 3 on, he has stated that he is willing to reconcile the broken relationship with mankind, his creation. That where sun abounds, his grace abounds even more! Grace is greater than all our sin! We can never deserve his love and mercy. God has done nothing because our efforts, in and of themselves, have necessitated him to give in to us. The is no wrestling move that we can put God under submission to our demands. No corner into which we can back him with no escape.

If God cannot be obligated by man, then all the “works” in the world are meaningless and worthless! Salvation can only be by grace, and that grace is accessed only through and by faith in his promises.


Doug

Brother, again you have simply explained the biblical model of salvation!

I really liked, "God cannot be obligated by man, then all the “works” in the world are meaningless and worthless! Salvation can only be by grace, and that grace is accessed only through and by faith in his promises."

A little testimony. Last night before going to bed the Lord was working within me leading me to articulate a better way to say things. When we use the word conditional it can cast an understanding of effort, and I was spurred to think of a better way to express receiving God's salvation. This morning when I woke up and got out of bed, and before reading your post, I understood this better way of expression as we access God's salvation by faith in the Jesus. And then I read your post and it confirms for me accessing is a better expression than condition.

God has provided salvation for everyone by His Son dying for our sins and rising for our life. That is done. To access this great salvation one must believe it.

God Bless