Salvation by works

David1701 said:
People make mistakes, and some show clear bias; however, "systematic theology" is simply the attempt to harmonise all that scripture teaches on important subjects.
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How many of those who slight systematics have actually ever read any systematics? They appear to know they are useless or uneeded but that's where it ends, their subjective dismissal. IMHO it is pretentiousness on their part, pointing to self, put others down to exalt self and appear more spiritual.

It is noted those who do so never bring any substantiation to their reasons to malign systematics. There disdain remains unfounded.
David1701 said:
To avoid it is really to avoid trying to understand the Bible properly.
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Exactly. I've read Ryrie, Thiessen, Grudem, and others that I cannot recall right now. Those three aforementioned have differing views, anti-Calvinist, non-Calvinist, then the latter is Calvinistic. They are all useful.

Systematics are a valuable resource; Ephesians 4:11ff. The rejection and belittling of them speaks volumes as to why there is so much theological ineptitude among many professing believers.
 
David1701 said:
Redemption incorporates a great deal more than your simplistic summary
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Not really, and all your "References" add nothing to the SIMPLICITY of the gospel.

BUT HEY!! Paul limited HIS INTERACTION with the unsaved to: "Jesus, and Him Crucified". So if you think you have to complicate things with your "Systematics", do whatever floats your boat, and worship your "Theology" all you like.

Goodbye
 
preacher4truth said:
How many of those who slight systematics have actually ever read any systematics? They appear to know they are useless or uneeded but that's where it ends, their subjective dismissal. IMHO it is pretentiousness on their part, pointing to self, put others down to exalt self and appear more spiritual.

It is noted those who do so never bring any substantiation to their reasons to malign systematics. There disdain remains unfounded.

Exactly. I've read Ryrie, Thiessen, Grudem, and others that I cannot recall right now. Those three aforementioned have differing views, anti-Calvinist, non-Calvinist, then the latter is Calvinistic. They are all useful.

Systematics are a valuable resource; Ephesians 4:11ff. The rejection and belittling of them speaks volumes as to why there is so much theological ineptitude among many professing believers.
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That's right. Systematic theology books are not the foundation for what Christians believe (that is the Bible) but they can certainly be very helpful.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Not really, and all your "References" add nothing to the SIMPLICITY of the gospel.

BUT HEY!! Paul limited HIS INTERACTION with the unsaved to: "Jesus, and Him Crucified". So if you think you have to complicate things with your "Systematics", do whatever floats your boat, and worship your "Theology" all you like.

Goodbye
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Fatuous insults, straw men and empty rhetoric seem to be your M.O.; could it be that you have never bothered to study God's word, but don't want to admit it, so you resort to low tactics instead? Well, whatever your motives, I'm sure that everyone can see your fruit...
 
David1701 said:
Fatuous insults, straw men and empty rhetoric seem to be your M.O.; could it be that you have never bothered to study God's word, but don't want to admit it, so you resort to low tactics instead? Well, whatever your motives, I'm sure that everyone can see your fruit...
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Not liking to admit to it, but your assessment is exactly correct, and that is all I see from said.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Not really, and all your "References" add nothing to the SIMPLICITY of the gospel.

BUT HEY!! Paul limited HIS INTERACTION with the unsaved to: "Jesus, and Him Crucified". So if you think you have to complicate things with your "Systematics", do whatever floats your boat, and worship your "Theology" all you like.

Goodbye
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Your retort is absurd, unChristian, and typical. For others here, the above is false: Systematics don't complicate, they simplify and give order.
 
David1701 said:
That's right. Systematic theology books are not the foundation for what Christians believe (that is the Bible) but they can certainly be very helpful.
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I agree. There is a vast difference between Sola Scriptura and Solo Scriptura. I've witnessed ridicule of the use of commentaries and others sources by professing believers, and the rule is they are typically theologically inept themselves. The reason is obvious, they reject Ephesians 4:11ff and show disdain for "the teachings of men." They are spiritual mavericks in their own minds. :)

Yet they want us to listen to their take on this, which is in itself "the teachings of men."

It's foolishness and a huge reason for so many problems in the church today.
 
preacher4truth said:
Your retort is absurd, unChristian, and typical. For others here, the above is false: Systematics don't complicate, they simplify and give order.
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I like to use different systematics to understand different view points especially if I am unsure of my own. I have Adam Clark's commentary on the Bible I will use to get the Arminian perspective. One of my favorite books. The more resources the better in my humble opinion. From all sides.
 
Reformedguy said:
I like to use different systematics to understand different view points especially if I am unsure of my own. I have Adam Clark's commentary on the Bible I will use to get the Arminian perspective. One of my favorite books. The more resources the better in my humble opinion. From all sides.
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Which systematic promotes regeneration before faith and which systematic promotes the reverse?
 
Synergy said:
Your Bible version promotes both regeneration before faith and the reverse? It must be the Elect Standard Version that P4T mentioned in previous comments.
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There are certainly arguements to be had from both sides. Rational individuals, not referring to you, can make a coherent arguement either way.
 
Reformedguy said:
There are certainly arguements to be had from both sides. Rational individuals, not referring to you, can make a coherent arguement either way.
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Give me one coherent argument for regeneration before faith. It can even be based on P4T's Elect Standard Version.
 
Synergy said:
Give me one coherent argument for regeneration before faith. It can even be based on P4T's Elect Standard Version.
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Ezekiel 36: 26,27
Paul says no one call Christ Lord "but BY THE Spirit".
Understanding of the things of God is given by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14

John 3, Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to Spitit. Flesh does not give birth to Spirit.
 
Reformedguy said:
Ezekiel 36: 26,27
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Those are excellent OT verses of the future regeneration of the faithful, at Pentecost and after. This clearly proves Faith before Regeneration. STRIKE 1!
Reformedguy said:
Paul says no one call Christ Lord "but BY THE Spirit".
Understanding of the things of God is given by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14
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Paul is talking to believers who are already regenerated. This is a failure on your part to understand the audience that this applies to. STRIKE 2!
Reformedguy said:
John 3, Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to Spitit. Flesh does not give birth to Spirit.
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That's why Paul declares that it's through the Word of God and by hearing the word of God that man does have the ability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result. (Rom 10:8-18). Definitely no regeneration before faith in either John 3 nor Rom 10:8-18. STRIKE 3!

Three Strikes, Yourrrrrrrrrrr OUT!!!
 
Synergy said:
Those are excellent OT verses of the future regeneration of the faithful, at Pentecost and after. This clearly proves Faith before Regeneration. STRIKE 1!

Paul is talking to believers who are already regenerated. This is a failure on your part to understand the audience that this applies to. STRIKE 2!

That's why Paul declares that it's through the Word of God and by hearing the word of God that man does have the ability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result. (Rom 10:8-18). Definitely no regeneration before faith in either John 3 nor Rom 10:8-18. STRIKE 3!

Three Strikes, Yourrrrrrrrrrr OUT!!!
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Really good points.
 
Synergy said:
Those are excellent OT verses of the future regeneration of the faithful, at Pentecost and after. This clearly proves Faith before Regeneration. STRIKE 1!

Paul is talking to believers who are already regenerated. This is a failure on your part to understand the audience that this applies to. STRIKE 2!

That's why Paul declares that it's through the Word of God and by hearing the word of God that man does have the ability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result. (Rom 10:8-18). Definitely no regeneration before faith in either John 3 nor Rom 10:8-18. STRIKE 3!

Three Strikes, Yourrrrrrrrrrr OUT!!!
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Wrong, lol . The new heart and then God CAUSES you to obey. Is belief a command? Fail#1

Exactly. So did the call Christ Lord minus the Spirit? Notice the NO ONE? Fail #2

We're dealing with John 3 not Romans 10. Pay attention. I will repeat our Lords words, "FLESH DOES NOT GIVE BIRTH TO SPIRIT". Fail#3
 
Reformedguy said:
Wrong, lol . The new heart and then God CAUSES you to obey. Is belief a command? Fail#1

Exactly. So did the call Christ Lord minus the Spirit? Notice the NO ONE? Fail #2

We're dealing with John 3 not Romans 10. Pay attention. I will repeat our Lords words, "FLESH DOES NOT GIVE BIRTH TO SPIRIT". Fail#3
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Still trying to twist Ezekiel into denying the fact the new testament clearly puts faith before the indwelling of the Spirit?

John 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Eph. 3:16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal. 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Gal. 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Gal. 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Acts 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
 
fltom said:
Still trying to twist Ezekiel into denying the fact the new testament clearly puts faith before the indwelling of the Spirit?

John 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Eph. 3:16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal. 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Gal. 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Gal. 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Acts 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
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LOL, how was your vacation?
You did not learn a thing did you?
 
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