Salvation by works

God did - doing what God commands is righteous
Okay, you completely missed the context of the statements that I made. God did not want them to do good deeds to be made right with Him. That was the context of the whole of statements. And that is biblically true.
the Law never taught personal Salvation by works
it's not part of the Mosaic covenant promises for obedience

anyone who believed that, and teachers who taught that, were mistaken
I agree. Too bad the Jewish people didn't get that. They tried to establish their own way of being right with God instead of trusting Him to do it for them.
personal Salvation/eternal Life has always been by grace, thru faith in Messiah
Yes, I agree
as a Believer,
God trusts for you?
Of course not, but that doesn't make faith a work either. Now works result from faith, but faith itself is not a work. How could believing something be a work? You believe the sun is coming up tomorrow morning. How is that a work?

Believing is not performance of an action to be made right with God.
Believing is trusting something in your heart to be true, and from that trust one acts. Faith without works is dead, as James stated.
 
First things first. You made the statement below and I responded. Let's clean that up before moving on.


You have just contradicted God and His chosen Apostle, Paul.

"What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness," (Rom 4:1-5)

No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (Rom 4:20-25)

So let me ask. Why do you think ones faith is filthy even though God calls it righteous when we believe Him? Aren't you judging God by calling ones faith filthy when He calls it righteous?
sigh

You have just contradicted Paul by quoting what he said ... ?
 
sigh

You have just contradicted Paul by quoting what he said ... ?
Let's turn that sigh into an upside down frown! :)

Please advise where I contradicted Paul who quoted that God counts our faith as righteousness.
To clarify, I'm the one who stands with the bible that God counts our faith as righteousness.
 
First things first. You made the statement below and I responded. Let's clean that up before moving on.


You have just contradicted God and His chosen Apostle, Paul.

"What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness," (Rom 4:1-5)

No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (Rom 4:20-25)

So let me ask. Why do you think ones faith is filthy even though God calls it righteous when we believe Him? Aren't you judging God by calling ones faith filthy when He calls it righteous?
No thanks...
 
@Howie This is what you said to me ? in post 142
sigh

You have just contradicted Paul by quoting what he said ... ?
So I replied back, "Please advise where I contradicted Paul who quoted that God counts our faith as righteousness."

And then you reply back with this ?
That's not what said, slick.
So what are you referring to when you told me that I "contradicted Paul by quoting what he said"?

I naturally thought it was in reference to the quote from Paul. Evidently I was wrong since you resorted to petty name calling and saying it is not what you said.

Just trying to keep all the cats herded. :)
 
@Howie This is what you said to me ? in post 142

So I replied back, "Please advise where I contradicted Paul who quoted that God counts our faith as righteousness."

And then you reply back with this ?

So what are you referring to when you told me that I "contradicted Paul by quoting what he said"?

I naturally thought it was in reference to the quote from Paul. Evidently I was wrong since you resorted to petty name calling and saying it is not what you said.

Just trying to keep all the cats herded. :)
Don't worry about it, Joe
 
I'm asking you to use the bible to prove your belief. I've used it and provided six quotes that clearly show one does not receive the Holy Spirit until after belief. I've provided the Lord saying the Spirit of God would be in the world convicting people when He left.
Okay Joe, I hope I can speak freely without being criticized for pointing out the obvious. We have pointed out over and over again, that carnal sinners will not seek, desire, or chose God. I hope you agree with this, if not, then, as you claim that nobody can be saved apart from Grace. Please explain why Grace is needed, and what does Grace do? Thanks in advance.
 
Okay Joe, I hope I can speak freely without being criticized for pointing out the obvious. We have pointed out over and over again, that carnal sinners will not seek, desire, or chose God. I hope you agree with this, if not, then, as you claim that nobody can be saved apart from Grace. Please explain why Grace is needed, and what does Grace do? Thanks in advance.
He doesn't agree with that.
 
Okay Joe, I hope I can speak freely without being criticized for pointing out the obvious. We have pointed out over and over again, that carnal sinners will not seek, desire, or chose God. I hope you agree with this, if not, then, as you claim that nobody can be saved apart from Grace. Please explain why Grace is needed, and what does Grace do? Thanks in advance.
Yes; Saint Paul's conclusion in Romans 3 concerning the Prevenient, Totally Depraved, naturally unalterable Fallen condition of All Mankind...
 
Okay Joe, I hope I can speak freely without being criticized for pointing out the obvious. We have pointed out over and over again, that carnal sinners will not seek, desire, or chose God. I hope you agree with this, if not, then, as you claim that nobody can be saved apart from Grace. Please explain why Grace is needed, and what does Grace do? Thanks in advance.
No where does the bible says they cannot respond to God's seeking them
 
Yes; Saint Paul's conclusion in Romans 3 concerning the Prevenient, Totally Depraved, naturally unalterable Fallen condition of All Mankind...
Isn’t the fallen condition of mankind why Jesus left heaven and was crucified ? Do you believe Jesus’s sacrifice accomplished nothing ? Didn’t Jesus promise and then send the Holy Spirit ? There is no one ever saved that wasn’t a sinner in the condition Romans 3 described correct ? Now for the rest of the story—>
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Mat 11:28 - Come unto me,all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
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Mat 11:29 - Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
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Mat 11:30 - For my yoke iseasy, and my burden is light.
 
Isn’t the fallen condition of mankind why Jesus left heaven and was crucified ? Do you believe Jesus’s sacrifice accomplished nothing ? Didn’t Jesus promise and then send the Holy Spirit ? There is no one ever saved that wasn’t a sinner in the condition Romans 3 described correct ? Now for the rest of the story—>
Unchecked Copy Box
Mat 11:28 - Come unto me,all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will giveyou rest.
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Mat 11:29 - Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find restunto your souls.
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Mat 11:30 - For my yoke iseasy, and my burden is light.
After Grace? Sure; we can freely come to God. For every Verse which says we can freely come to God, we're to Presume that the Grace of God has come to us and made a 'real difference' in our Salvation. If not, Grace is no longer Grace when it is not needed...

Why is Grace necessary after Justification, but not before Justification?
 
After Grace? Sure; we can freely come to God. For every Verse which says we can freely come to God, we're to Presume that the Grace of God has come to us and made a 'real difference' in our Salvation. If not, Grace is no longer Grace when it is not needed...

Why is Grace necessary after Justification, but not before Justification?
Again no one comes to the Son the Father has not drawn so of course Without God moving first no one would or could come to Him, but many that God calls reject the call. Grace was provided at Calvary and has been available to anyone who would humble themself before God and accept the truth I.e. Jesus:
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Jhn 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth,and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Grace was provided before we were born correct ? It has been 2000 years since the Lord was crucified.
 
Again no one comes to the Son the Father has not drawn so of course Without God moving first no one would or could come to Him, but many that God calls reject the call. Grace was provided at Calvary and has been available to anyone who would humble themself before God and accept the truth I.e. Jesus:
Unchecked Copy Box
Jhn 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth,and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Grace was provided before we were born correct ? It has been 2000 years since the Lord was crucified.
You're describing the general call, and the effectual call.
 
After Grace? Sure; we can freely come to God. For every Verse which says we can freely come to God, we're to Presume that the Grace of God has come to us and made a 'real difference' in our Salvation. If not, Grace is no longer Grace when it is not needed...

Why is Grace necessary after Justification, but not before Justification?
Okay Joe, I hope I can speak freely without being criticized for pointing out the obvious. We have pointed out over and over again, that carnal sinners will not seek, desire, or chose God. I hope you agree with this, if not, then, as you claim that nobody can be saved apart from Grace. Please explain why Grace is needed, and what does Grace do? Thanks in advance.
Everyone that has ever been saved was a sinner who eventually sought God correct ? Grace is needed because we sinned against God and without grace there would be no forgiveness for our sins against God. Grace covers the penalty of our sins to Almighty God and removes our sin as far as the east is from the west. I think Isiah would disagree with your belief that no one can seek the Lord—->
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Isa 55:6 - Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
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Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
 
You're refusing to believe the Bible's statement of the absolute, "no one seeks Him."

Isn't that true, Tom, you do not believe that.
Seeks is one thing responding another

No where do we read man cannot respond to the God who seeks them
 
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