Salvation by works

You're describing the general call, and the effectual call.
Is this like the 2 wills of God some Calvinist believe, and or like the 3 wills of God other Calvinist believe ? You can destroy a lot of context by making a distinction between a general call and an effectual call. If the general call produces results it was an effectual call correct ?
 
Is this like the 2 wills of God some Calvinist believe, and or like the 3 wills of God other Calvinist believe ? You can destroy a lot of context by making a distinction between a general call and an effectual call. If the general call produces results it was an effectual call correct ?
From all mankind, God elects whom He will save, and whom He will not save.

The Gospel call is that call broadcast to all mankind. The anticipated result of the general call to all mankind is rejection of Christ in belief.

Within the Gospel call is the effectual call that is targeted to those with ears to hear (Rom 10:17).

So, the Gospel call does produce a result: rejection of the call in unbelief by the non-elect, and belief by the elect

Gospel call, Effectual call
 
Yes; Saint Paul's conclusion in Romans 3 concerning the Prevenient, Totally Depraved, naturally unalterable Fallen condition of All Mankind...
Exactly, people cannot have it both ways. People claim that no one can be saved apart from God's Grace, good, excellent this is biblical teaching. But then they deny that this Grace accomplishes anything, which Scripture contradicts. When I was an Arminian, no one could provide a satisfactory answer for me, what is this Grace they speak of, and what does it do. They said all kind of stuff, which never satisfied the inquiry. Because Scripture speaks of God's Grace as effectual, in saving his people from their sins, in the Promise/Oath/Covenant of Redemption.

I could never get around the Arminian teaching that Christ made Salvation general, and potential or possible. First of all, this is not Biblical teaching, second how cruel to make salvation only potential or possible, it's like telling a lame person to win the marathon, just as long you buy them good shoes, gear, get them sponsors, give them everything, accept the ability to run because they are lame. And if Christ said get up and come to me, who would refuse? It never made ay sense to me.

That's why I find comfort, peace of conscience, refuge, love, joy, happiness, in the God who is faithful to keep his Promise; his Oath; his Covenant that he wills, and accomplishes everything for his people in his Son. To save those whom the Father gave to his to save, and he shall lose none of them.​
 
Tom, why would men who will never believe in God seek God?
Unchecked Copy Box
Heb 11:6 - But without faithit is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, andthat he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 
I stayed up late into the early morning this whole week reading and doing my homework. Allow me to share this with you, and please, give me your thoughts.

On the matter of free-will, about which Augustine was criticized in his own day and has been ever since, he understood human freedom to be simply the ability to do what one wills. If, in any given case, we can act as we will to act, then we are free in that case. The complication is that since Adam's fall, human free-will is in bondage to sin. This point I would like to elaborate further, people often confuse that the sinner's will is in bondage because God is Sovereign, this is incorrect, the sinner's will is in bondage due to sin. So people paint God as a monster who accuse and punishes sinners for things they are forced or coerced to do. Making God the author of evil. This is also incorrect, God does not force or coerce sinners to sin, they sin because they are sinners! They do it willingly, from a craving and desire to satisfy the passions of their minds and flesh. Does any body force them to do this? I believe this is why people do not take the time to not only read Scripture, but study it and understand the narrative that is threaded through Genesis to Revelation. We still have "natural freedom," insofar as we can still do as we will. But because of original sin, the will itself is now bent toward sin, so that we inevitably will to sin and act sinfully.

In this disastrous situation, if salvation, is to come to us at all, it can be only as a free gift of divine grace. Grace does not simply provide the option of salvation; it always accomplishes what it purposes. On this Augustinian understanding, Prevenient Grace (grace that "comes before") has an important place. And this Prevenient Grace is particular and effective, rather than general and potential.

I provide more later, need to break, body is hurting, sorry. More good stuff to be continued.

In Christ Alone!​
 
100% wrong based on what Jesus taught in John 3. You have changed the gospel to fit a theology that denies the sacrifice of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Lol, look at how far this poster goes to falsely accuse others ^^^^

NONE of the above is true.

You have blamed God for men rejecting Jesus when Jesus taught men reject Him because they would not allow the light to expose their deeds, which was their choice.
Even MORE false accusations ^^^
Unchecked Copy Box
Jhn 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men Loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Unchecked Copy Box
Jhn 3:20 - For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Unchecked Copy Box
Jhn 3:21 - But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
You don't understand these texts, you turn them inside out and make them teach you got saved BECAUSE of you. Guess what, they don't teach that at all, and they don't teach some got saved because they loved light. That's merit, not grace.
 
I stayed up late into the early morning this whole week reading and doing my homework. Allow me to share this with you, and please, give me your thoughts.

On the matter of free-will, about which Augustine was criticized in his own day and has been ever since, he understood human freedom to be simply the ability to do what one wills. If, in any given case, we can act as we will to act, then we are free in that case. The complication is that since Adam's fall, human free-will is in bondage to sin. This point I would like to elaborate further, people often confuse that the sinner's will is in bondage because God is Sovereign, this is incorrect, the sinner's will is in bondage due to sin. So people paint God as a monster who accuse and punishes sinners for things they are forced or coerced to do. Making God the author of evil. This is also incorrect, God does not force or coerce sinners to sin, they sin because they are sinners! They do it willingly, from a craving and desire to satisfy the passions of their minds and flesh. Does any body force them to do this? I believe this is why people do not take the time to not only read Scripture, but study it and understand the narrative that is threaded through Genesis to Revelation. We still have "natural freedom," insofar as we can still do as we will. But because of original sin, the will itself is now bent toward sin, so that we inevitably will to sin and act sinfully.

In this disastrous situation, if salvation, is to come to us at all, it can be only as a free gift of divine grace. Grace does not simply provide the option of salvation; it always accomplishes what it purposes. On this Augustinian understanding, Prevenient Grace (grace that "comes before") has an important place. And this Prevenient Grace is particular and effective, rather than general and potential.

I provide more later, need to break, body is hurting, sorry. More good stuff to be continued.

In Christ Alone!​
Unchecked Copy Box
1Co 1:12 - Now this I say,that every one of you saith, Iam of Paul; and I of Apollos;and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Unchecked Copy Box
1Co 1:13 - Is Christ-divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 
The revealed Word of God is clear that no one is saved by appealing to their good works. Jewish people of Jesus' day perished "For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom 10:3-4)

This is saying that the righteousness we're supposed to do are the things God decided are righteous, not what we decided is righteous. Doing the righteous things God said to do is submitting to God and isn't an effort to establish our own righteousness.
Salvation by works is an appeal to one's own righteousness.
  • These people hear the Good News of Christ and reject it placing their trust in self over God.
  • They are the ones who seek to justify themselves with an appeal to their good deeds. Often times at the condemnation of others.
  • Jesus spoke about them, "anyone who hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned." (Jn 3:20)
Your premise is false as I just explained above. Please don't take that personally as this is important. Just want to be direct as possible.

We do have to do something to access the benefits of Christ's sacrifice:

1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Romans 2
7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Hebrews 10
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,


Salvation by faith is the appeal of a sin conscious guilty person calling out to Jesus Christ in belief to save him.
  • These people hear the Good News of Christ and obey by changing their mind and believing; that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them, instructing people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
  • They are the ones who believe they are guilty before God of their sins. They appeal to Jesus Christ in belief, trusting God to justify them.
  • Jesus spoke about them, "whoever practices truth [does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]." (Jn 3:21)

Biblically, salvation by works is not when one responds to God as instructed to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Their appeal to Jesus Christ is by faith, which comes from hearing the Good News of God in Christ. They are saved by God's grace when they believed. They take no credit for it. Their salvation is a gift of God. Salvation was not a reward for the good things they may have done, and they certainly don't boast they were saved by their goodness. They trust God to make them right with Him.

God Bless
Let's be careful with saying works because it's a bit of a Bible buzz word and not everyone understands that works is not always a reference to Law keeping. There are good works, works of the Spirit, and work that is to labor.

What Jesus accomplished was a sin sacrifice.

This sin sacrifice is for our sins past and present, but there's nothing about the guaranteed forgiveness of future sins in the Bible.

The expectation is that after one is saved, they will continue walking in the light, having come to the knowledge of the truth, in order to have forgiveness of sins. This is all about true repentance.

Thus, going forward into the future, when we sin we are expected to confess these sins to God. To be clear, this is more than just lip service, more than just verbally and audibly confessing sins, but the expectation is there is repentance; the sincere desire and work to not repeat the same sins.

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is real, undiluted, Christianity. The road to glory is not easy, but God is here for us every step of the way.
 
Exactly, people cannot have it both ways. People claim that no one can be saved apart from God's Grace, good, excellent this is biblical teaching. But then they deny that this Grace accomplishes anything, which Scripture contradicts. When I was an Arminian, no one could provide a satisfactory answer for me, what is this Grace they speak of, and what does it do. They said all kind of stuff, which never satisfied the inquiry. Because Scripture speaks of God's Grace as effectual, in saving his people from their sins, in the Promise/Oath/Covenant of Redemption.

I could never get around the Arminian teaching that Christ made Salvation general, and potential or possible. First of all, this is not Biblical teaching, second how cruel to make salvation only potential or possible, it's like telling a lame person to win the marathon, just as long you buy them good shoes, gear, get them sponsors, give them everything, accept the ability to run because they are lame. And if Christ said get up and come to me, who would refuse? It never made ay sense to me.

That's why I find comfort, peace of conscience, refuge, love, joy, happiness, in the God who is faithful to keep his Promise; his Oath; his Covenant that he wills, and accomplishes everything for his people in his Son. To save those whom the Father gave to his to save, and he shall lose none of them.​
It's why I have come to the Conclusion that we need to just talk to each other. We could get more accomplished by building upon one another, than tearing them down. Think about it; if you were in a debate about Eternal Security, you would support your Premise...
 
See Mark 4:12.
See Mark 4:12.

"To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God;" - the Disciples were to get direct teaching/explanations
"Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:" the Masses, started getting indirect/parable teaching

the change in teaching style came because of the unpardonable sin to be committed by that generation of Israel
that is referenced in the preceding ch. 3 v. 28-29

is this dealing with Israel (gospel of the Kingdom)?

do you mix that gospel up with gospel of personal Salvation, John?

so God is not the author of sin
 
Last edited:
Back
Top