"salvation by works"

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie---All now answer for their own choices, after death--and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Theo---Then you preach a doctrine of salvation by works, and deny the grace of God.

Could anyone here explain for us why the testimony of Jesus above, found in John5:28-29-- is "salvation by works"--and how does it "deny the grace of God"?

Is it because it runs contrary to Reformed theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Could anyone here explain for us why the testimony of Jesus above, found in John5:28-29-- is "salvation by works"--and how does it "deny the grace of God"?

Is it because it runs contrary to Reformed theology?
Com'on guys. Surely--since Reformed theology is based on the pillar of faith alone theology---surely, someone would want to address this:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

How do we fit faith alone theology into the Biblical NT?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Com'on guys. Surely--since Reformed theology is based on the pillar of faith alone theology---surely, someone would want to address this:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

How do we fit faith alone theology into the Biblical NT?

Of course, I already answered this in the Mormonism forum, when this poster tried to sabotage another thread by posting James 2:24 in that thread. I started a new thread (as this poster SHOULD have done himself), and responded to James 2:24 over there. This poster didn't like it, and so now he's trying to start the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT over here as well.

Here is my response:

Since dberrie refuses to obey the rules of the forum and start new threads instead of sabotaging other people's, I guess I have to do his work for him.

He also wants to bring up the same topic/proof-text that has been refuted 50 million times in the past.

dberrie2020 said:
What do you find as "games" about the testimony of the Biblical witness?

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You do have a salvational theology which is called "faith alone"--right?

The LDS follow the Biblical testimony above. It's no game to them. Anathema to the theology pawned by some here.

James 2:24 doesn't deny salvation by faith alone.
It denies "justification" by faith alone.
And specifically what it is saying that just because someone CLAIMS to have faith, doesn't mean they actually do. Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).
It simply means that the works are the fruits or evidence of a saving faith.

The second theologically inept thing this poster does is to IGNORE the bulk of Scripture, which teaches that salvation IS by "faith alone" (by stating it comes by faith, and excluding any "works"):

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.






So here we are again, refuting this poster's misinterpretation of Scripture for the 50 million and SECOND time, where he will CONTINUE to ignore Eph. 2:8-9, he will CONTINUE to ignore 2 Tim. 1:9, he will CONTINUE to ignore Tit. 3:5, he will CONTINUE to ignore Rom. 4:1-5, and will CONTINUE to ignore Rom. 11:5-6, and CONTINUE to ignore the CONTEXT of James 2.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).
That is an absolutely confused statement, IMO.

You state that a faith without works can't save--then--"That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).

That's faith alone theology for ya.

So, Theo--is a "true saving faith" necessary for salvation to occur?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That is an absolutely confused statement, IMO.

I understand that you admit to being confused.
That's simply because you try to combine the Bible (which is true) with Mormonism (which is false).

That's faith alone theology for ya.

Why do you refuse to address Eph. 2:8-9?
Why do you refuse to address 2 Tim. 1:9?
Why do you refuse to address Tit. 3:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 4:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 11:5-6?

So, Theo--is a "true saving faith" necessary for salvation to occur?

You keep dodging my questions, so I don't see why I need to answer your questions, especially since YOUR questions are OFF-TOPIC.

Why do you refuse to address Eph. 2:8-9?
Why do you refuse to address 2 Tim. 1:9?
Why do you refuse to address Tit. 3:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 4:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 11:5-6?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).
Just a note here also, Theo--faith alone theology is a salvation by grace, through a faith without works.

Centrality in Protestant doctrine--sola fide--​

The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Just a note here also, Theo--faith alone theology is a salvation by grace, through a faith without works.

That's simply not true.

And if that's what "Wikipedia" says, then it's wrong.

And if your go-to resource for "facts" is "Wikipedia", no wonder your theology is so screwed up.

Martin Luther had a saying:

"We are saved by faith alone.
But a faith that saves is never alone."

And this is basically what James 2 teaches (when understood correctly, which you apparently don't).

Works are the "fruits" or evidence which demonstrates a true saving faith.
But those works don't "cause" or partially cause, or contribute to our salvation.

That's why you need to RUN AWAY from Eph. 2:8-9.
That's why you need to RUN AWAY from Tit. 3:5.
That's why you need to RUN AWAY from 2 Tim. 1:9.
That's why you need to RUN AWAY from Rom. 4:1-5.
That's why you need to RUN AWAY from Rom. 11:5-6.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Simple salvation by works denies Salvation by Grace.
Who has postulated "salvation by works"?

Are you claiming this is an example of such?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Com'on guys. Surely--since Reformed theology is based on the pillar of faith alone theology---surely, someone would want to address this:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

How do we fit faith alone theology into the Biblical NT?
Quite simply Good works are an evidence of salvation not the cause of it

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:24 speaks of justification that is vindication of what we are stated to be not declaration of righteousness or salvation
Could anyone here explain for us why the testimony of Jesus above, found in John5:28-29-- is "salvation by works"--and how does it "deny the grace of God"?

Is it because it runs contrary to Reformed theology?
Not reformed
Who has postulated "salvation by works"?

Are you claiming this is an example of such?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
How is this relevant to a Calvinist - Arminian forum ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Who has postulated "salvation by works"?

Are you claiming this is an example of such?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
You have. Don't you believe that sinners Christ died for, shed His Blood for, can be and are lost? Yes or No
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Who has postulated "salvation by works"?

Are you claiming this is an example of such?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
No it is not

Good works are the evidence of Christ's work in a man

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

an effect rather than a cause

Titus 2:14 (KJV 1900)
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
 

civic

Active member
No it is not

Good works are the evidence of Christ's work in a man

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

an effect rather than a cause

Titus 2:14 (KJV 1900)
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Exactly I like to say its the fruit from being in the Root. A good tree bears good fruit. We are in the vine as His branches. I look at works in Ephesians 2:8-10 as I do the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-25.

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Exactly I like to say its the fruit from being in the Root. A good tree bears good fruit. We are in the vine as His branches. I look at works in Ephesians 2:8-10 as I do the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-25.

hope this helps !!!
Yes Good Biblical analogy
 

e v e

Active member
salvation will only be at the change for the 144k and for others after the change... until then a soul who met Him has His promise. Christ made it possible and legally so.... the first part being the legal but the change is the second part of that.... the defacto.

as long as we are in this realm of sin, mystery babylon, we must try and stay away from carnality and constantly to die to the self. Even souls who met Him in the old testament...they knew that. And that’s what the 10 commandments are for... to protect the soul from that horrible foreign nature which is the Self. A battle that doesn’t stop when a soul believes.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Quite simply Good works are an evidence of salvation not the cause of it
Morning, Tom:

God's grace is the cause of salvation. The question is--who does God give His salvational grace unto life--as a personal reception?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


That flies in the face of faith alone theology--which preaches one inherits eternal life--to the exclusion of all acts of obedience to God.

How is this relevant to a Calvinist - Arminian forum ?

Because Reformed theology adopts "faith alone" theology(sola fide) as it's theological pillar.

So--how could faith alone theology conform to the testimony of Christ?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

IOW--if all men are judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation--then faith alone theology is false--at once!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You have.

So--are you claiming this is an example of "salvation by works"?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Don't you believe that sinners Christ died for, shed His Blood for, can be and are lost? Yes or No
I believe Jesus Christ died for all men in His Atonement and was Resurrected for all men--which released all men from the condemnation of the Fall--both death and hell--and brought eternal life to all men--as an opportunity--and as a free gift to all men(justified all men of life):

Romans 5:18----King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift. Done. Over. Nailed to the cross. Christ alone. Not Christ's Blood plus your faith--or mine. It that would have been added--it would have failed, because it took a perfect sacrifice--and neither your faith nor mine is perfect.

And--I believe there is a contextual point there, in the comparison.

Were the "all men" which judgment came upon, due to the "offence of one"--just the elect? Just the sinner? Just the reprobate?

Or was it the totality of all mankind?

We now answer for our own choices--and not Adam's:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
No it is not
I agree.

Then why is the accusation hurled (salvation by works)--whenever the scriptures are posted showing all men are judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation, or--connecting works to faith--as an integral component?(faith without works is dead)

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

James 2:18-26----King James Version

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Exactly I like to say its the fruit from being in the Root. A good tree bears good fruit. We are in the vine as His branches. I look at works in Ephesians 2:8-10 as I do the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-25.

hope this helps !!!
Hi Civic:

There is one point, in addition to that--which I believe is worthy of consideration, and defies faith alone theology:

Matthew 7:19---King James Version19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Good works are the evidence of Christ's work in a man

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

an effect rather than a cause

Titus 2:14 (KJV 1900)
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tom--while I don't disagree with your embolden statement above--I do believe there is more to the connection between works and God's grace unto life--as a personal reception of eternal life--than what your cloistered statement above portrays:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Again--if that is true--faith alone theology is false.
 
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