Salvation can be seen in this analogy

cadwell

Well-known member
He was blind. Being blind physically means he is unable to see physically. It's a picture of a spiritual reality.

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Luke 18:42 KJV

Faith=Christ.

"Thy Christ hath saved thee."
Yikes. That is complete and utter decimation of a perfectly good verse.

Luke 18:36 And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.37 And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.

His physical blindness had nothing to do with his "spiritual reality", he relied on his hearing, which seems to be working just fine. Could it be you are reading something into the passage that just isnt there? And that the statement you made concerning miracles and inability is in error?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Yikes. That is complete and utter decimation of a perfectly good verse.

Luke 18:36 And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.37 And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
Yes he could hear, he couldn't see though. He was physically blind. I don't understand your point. He didn't see Jesus pass by...

His physical blindness had nothing to do with his "spiritual reality", he relied on his hearing, which seems to be working just fine.
I didn't say it had anything to do with it. I said it's a picture of a spiritual reality. All men are born spiritually deaf, dumb, blind, mute, and DEAD. Being spiritually dead is conditioned on Adam.

Could it be you are reading something into the passage that just isnt there? And that the statement you made concerning miracles and inability is in error?
Yes it could be. Why do you believe Jesus healed this man of blindness?
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Yes he could hear, he couldn't see though. He was physically blind. I don't understand your point. He didn't see Jesus pass by...
He didn’t need to see to believe, he heard. They told him what was going on, in effect they preached Jesus to him, he heard, and believed. It’s pretty much a step by step process of how one is saved. You said this had something to do with inability to obey a command. What exactly?
I didn't say it had anything to do with it. I said it's a picture of a spiritual reality. All men are born spiritually deaf, dumb, blind, mute, and DEAD. Being spiritually dead is conditioned on Adam.
The picture this man paints is that one can be blind but not deaf, and be saved.
Yes it could be. Why do you believe Jesus healed this man of blindness?
Because that’s what he had faith to ask for.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
It’s pretty much a step by step process of how one is saved. You said this had something to do with inability to obey a command. What exactly?
I said it's a picture of a spiritual reality. Could the man see without Christ? No.

Can the natural man believe on Christ? No.

The picture this man paints is that one can be blind but not deaf, and be saved.
Ok. Do you believe if one is born deaf, dumb, blind, mute etc they have no hope to ever "hear" the Gospel? They are physically incapable of it...

Because that’s what he had faith to ask for.
What is the lesson I mean? To me, it's too show man's inability to see...
 

cadwell

Well-known member
I said it's a picture of a spiritual reality. Could the man see without Christ? No.
I agree that Christ gave him sight. But he was able to come the Christ without it.
Can the natural man believe on Christ? No.
Yes. What verse says he cannot?
Ok. Do you believe if one is born deaf, dumb, blind, mute etc they have no hope to ever "hear" the Gospel? They are physically incapable of it...
The deaf person cannot hear physically, but they can still hear spiritually. There are several at my church. We have a person that’s does ASL.
What is the lesson I mean? To me, it's too show man's inability to see...
To me it shows a mans ability to hear.
 

LeeH

Well-known member
Salvation can be seen in this analogy:

Some say man is in the middle of a lake drowning. Just before he goes under for the last time and dies a life preserver is thrown to him...all he has to do is grab onto the life preserver and be dragged to shore and live.

The real analogy is as follows:

The man has already drowned and laying at the bottom of the lake dead. Jesus has to jump into the lake and drag you to shore then restore life to you. Regenerate you.
That is a very interesting analogy, but I prefer this one.

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Seems to me the son made a decision to go back to his father. The father waited for him, didn't go to him and force him to come back.

The question is which analogy do you want to believe in when it comes to salvation Crowcross or Jesus?
 

Howie

Well-known member
How does the Father grant you the ability to come to Christ? All of a sudden, you just "can"??
Unbelievable. With God, everything is impossible, but not with dead man, eh. @cadwell?

Mt 8:18-22 ... Now when Jesus saw a crowd around Him, He gave orders to depart to the other side of the sea. Then a scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.” And Jesus *said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” And another of the disciples said to Him, “Lord, allow me first to go and bury my father.” But Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Jesus in your face, @cadwell, and still you'll choose to remain in UNBELIEF ...
 

cadwell

Well-known member
That is a very interesting analogy, but I prefer this one.

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Seems to me the son made a decision to go back to his father. The father waited for him, didn't go to him and force him to come back.

The question is which analogy do you want to believe in when it comes to salvation Crowcross or Jesus?
I'll take Jesus'
 

Rockson

Well-known member
Salvation can be seen in this analogy:

Some say man is in the middle of a lake drowning. Just before he goes under for the last time and dies a life preserver is thrown to him...all he has to do is grab onto the life preserver and be dragged to shore and live.

The real analogy is as follows:

The man has already drowned and laying at the bottom of the lake dead. Jesus has to jump into the lake and drag you to shore then restore life to you. Regenerate you.
Sorry CrowCross but this is absolutely ridiculous and totally unnecessary to create such a post.

So you put out two analogies one of which you embrace....problem is the first analogy already by clear words of scripture has been shown to be true. The prodigal son account already gave the scriptural analogy of what being dead spiritually is like. Your analogy goes right against the one the Bible itself has provided. Question is are we going to STAY with the Bible or veer off into something else?

But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. Lk 15:23,24

It says the son was spiritually dead. Can we deny this? No. The Son while spiritually dead could think and reason therefore did not have cessation of consciouness. He came back to the Father WTHOUT the Father jumping into the lake and dragging him to shore (as you put down) The prodical son story actually goes totally oppositie of an irresitible grace concept. It had to be the prodical sons decision and his alone which brought him back to the Father house. Again you can talk all you want about ones being dead and drowned in the bottom of the lake.....it does not even come close to the actual Bible analogy used about one spiritually dead.

Sorry but all one can say therefore is that it's your made-up analogy which is the thing that is dead in the water.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I believe all the miracles performed by Christ were meant to point to mans total inability of obeying the commands of God. Good post. Whether you are deaf, dumb, blind, dead or demon posessed, you do not have the ability to come to Christ on your own.
Yes. And if you are hearing, speaking, seeing, alive, not demon possessed, you still do not have the ability to come to Christ on your own. Jesus didn't say "no one may come to me" He said "no one can come to me."
 

Rockson

Well-known member
Therefore Christians should never undermine the Bible...

But they're still going to do it...
In light of the fact Rev that we have AN ACTUAL scriptural analogy of what spiritual death is like in the Prodigal son story where the Father did not go and drag the son back home are you NOW going to back off and cease doing what you insisted other Christians should do....that is undermine the Bible? Or are you still going to do it?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Yes. What verse says he cannot?
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

The deaf person cannot hear physically, but they can still hear spiritually. There are several at my church. We have a person that’s does ASL.
To me it shows a mans ability to hear.
Ok so I didn't explain myself. It's a picture, that's all. Of course there are deaf and blind people that God has saved on Calvary in Christ.
 

Howie

Well-known member
In light of the fact Rev that we have AN ACTUAL scriptural analogy of what spiritual death is like in the Prodigal son story where the Father did not go and drag the son back home are you NOW going to back off and cease doing what you insisted other Christians should do....that is undermine the Bible? Or are you still going to do it?
Are you?

Of course I disagree with your understanding of the parable.

But, moving on, Jn 6:44 says the Father drags men to Christ. That's because they don't have the power to come on their own (cf 1 Cor 12:3).

So, you have a problem to work out here, and that problem is, your understanding of scripture presents a scripture that contradicts itself.

Can you cite any historical Confession or Creed that agrees with your doctrine that Scripture Contradicts Itself?

I'd like to read it, if you do.
 
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Rockson

Well-known member
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
How you're using that verse as a Calvinists is wrong. He wasn't talking about the basic knowledge of salvation he was talking about the deep things of the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:10. 1 Cor 3:1 confirms this by saying to these very people that he couldn't give them spiritual meat that they couldn't take it. He said he had to give them only milk the basic things of the gospel. All unregenerated can understand the basic things.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
How you're using that verse as a Calvinists <sic> is wrong.
lolzzz...
He wasn't talking about the basic knowledge of salvation he was talking about the deep things of the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:10. 1 Cor 3:1 confirms this by saying to these very people that he couldn't give them spiritual meat that they couldn't take it. He said he had to give them only milk the basic things of the gospel. All unregenerated can understand the basic things.
Oh boy...so much here to dismantle. Where to begin...
 
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