Salvation can be seen in this analogy

cadwell

Well-known member
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
Your statement asked "can the natural man can believe on Christ", and you answered "no". This verse does not say the natural man cannot believe.
Ok so I didn't explain myself. It's a picture, that's all. Of course there are deaf and blind people that God has saved on Calvary in Christ.
Right, but the issue is that you claimed those miracles are meant to show inability. My question is how? The blind man was able, by hearing. Which is how the bible says faith comes. And thats what Jesus told the blind man, your faith has saved you. No inability whatsoever.
 

Howie

Well-known member
How you're using that verse as a Calvinists is wrong. He wasn't talking about the basic knowledge of salvation he was talking about the deep things of the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:10. 1 Cor 3:1 confirms this by saying to these very people that he couldn't give them spiritual meat that they couldn't take it. He said he had to give them only milk the basic things of the gospel. All unregenerated can understand the basic things.
You're wrong. The context of chapter 2 is not chapter 1. New believers need milk. Natural man needs salvation.

Read chapter 2 again. See also jn 6:44; 1 cor 12:3
 

LeeH

Well-known member
Unbelievable. With God, everything is impossible, but not with dead man, eh. @cadwell?

Mt 8:18-22 ... Now when Jesus saw a crowd around Him, He gave orders to depart to the other side of the sea. Then a scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.” And Jesus *said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” And another of the disciples said to Him, “Lord, allow me first to go and bury my father.” But Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Jesus in your face, @cadwell, and still you'll choose to remain in UNBELIEF ...
Didn't you claim Howie, that for you to believe in God, you need to be regenerated first and that requires you to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, because the dead can not come to God by their own free will?

What went wrong here with your theology, then?

John 20:24-29

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

(So Thomas had not received the Holy Spirit yet, agreed, he was still dead, agreed?)


26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Now Thomas believes, yet it wasn't by him being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, like you claim, he did it from seeing, even though he was spiritually dead at that moment. So the dead can believe without regeneration.

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The above verse makes it clear why he believed, he saw and believed, yet others will be blessed because they did not need to see, yet still believed.

What this proves is you can put your trust in Jesus and believe in him, without receiving the Holy Spirit first.

So you are wrong and scripture shows you to be wrong. God bless.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
No. 2's context is 2.
I always looked at 2:1 as referencing back to 1:16ff since there he is rehashing his preaching at Corinth, and is recapping it again in 2:1. This is why I see 2:14 as referring to gospel truth, that the natural man will not receive these things &c.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Didn't you claim Howie, that for you to believe in God, you need to be regenerated first...
This is the common mistake, it isn't mere belief in God that is at the center here; it is belief in the Gospel of His Son that is at stake. Faith in the Son of God and His Gospel is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:8ff; Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 1:19 &c.

All believe in God and are without excuse as per Romans 1. You're making a common category error -- deepen your thinking and be accurate.
 

Howie

Well-known member
I always looked at 2:1 as referencing back to 1:16ff since there he is rehashing his preaching at Corinth, and is recapping it again in 2:1. This is why I see 2:14 as referring to gospel truth, that the natural man will not receive these things &c.
That is truth. Unregenerate man cannot discern spiritual things. Don't be deterred by objections to that.
 

LeeH

Well-known member
This is the common mistake, it isn't mere belief in God that is at the center here; it is belief in the Gospel of His Son that is at stake. Faith in the Son of God and His Gospel is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:8ff; Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 1:19 &c.

All believe in God and are without excuse as per Romans 1. You're making a common category error -- deepen your thinking and be accurate.
Romans 10:9
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thomas, by calling Jesus Lord, God, fullfilled the scripture above.

The scripture above is the gospel, or will you deny this?
 

Rockson

Well-known member
Jn 6:44 says the Father drags men to Christ. That's because they don't have the power to cime 8n their own.
For the very reason you're going to another verse but won't stay with the Prodigal Son passage kind of indicates you're acknowledging the Lk 15 analogy DOES point to the direction of no irresistible grace that is that the father didn't drag him back. Why not just stay with the actual analogy God gave about one who is spiritually dead?

And if you're going with Jn 6:44 has to mean drag (from draw) then you have to deal with John 12:32 where Jesus says “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” If you're going to say he's dragging all men unto him you're talking about universalism. If you're going to claim it's really all types of men then you're engaging in very strange mental gymnastics in order to arrive at that conclusion.

And if Jn 12:32 just means SOME....why then didn't the writer just use the word SOME? A quick glance without counting them I assess the word some is in the New Testament dozens of times. So you can't claim it's just some groups of people. If there's any place God would have used the word some it would be there! And seeing he draws all men and not all men come it MUST mean drawing in the context of the verse doesn't mean force or an irresistible method God uses to bring a sinner to himself.


 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Romans 10:9
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thomas, by calling Jesus Lord, God, fullfilled the scripture above.
He proved he was converted.
The scripture above is the gospel, or will you deny this?
I'm certain you will charge me with that yet again.

But regardless, I cannot help your reaction towards other believers. But God can!

Anyhow, Happy Thanksgiving from across the pond!
 

LeeH

Well-known member
He proved he was converted.
We agree.
I'm certain you will charge me with that yet again.
I am not charging you with anything, I was just looking to see if you would agree. I am not out to get you, you know. Where we agree we will and where we can't we won't, seems reasonable?
But regardless, I cannot help your reaction towards other believers. But God can!
Maybe you are misreading my posts, the internet can do that, is that a possability?
Anyhow, Happy Thanksgiving from across the pond!
Happy thanksgiving to you P4T, God bless.
 
Romans 10:9
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thomas, by calling Jesus Lord, God, fullfilled the scripture above.

The scripture above is the gospel, or will you deny this?

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is the one to follow (Lord)", and believe in your heart that God raised Him (the one we are to follow) - from the dead. You will be Saved - you will follow the one who was raised from death (by doing so you will come to life).
 
Last edited:

Theo1689

Well-known member
In light of the fact Rev that we have AN ACTUAL scriptural analogy of what spiritual death is like in the Prodigal son story where the Father did not go and drag the son back home are you NOW going to back off and cease doing what you insisted other Christians should do....that is undermine the Bible? Or are you still going to do it?

I love how the anti-Calvinists constantly engage in double-standards, and assume things in the text that are not explicitly stated.

1) You say, "Where does it say that the Father dragged the some back home?" Well, we could rightly ask, "where does it say that the Son came back by his "free will" independently of the Father?" Prodigals are meant to address ONE teaching, and so they aren't going to be exhaustive and complete with perfect exactness.

2) The main error anti-Calvinists commit with the parable of the prodigal, is that they IGNORE the other two parables Jesus gave along with it. Where in the parable of the lost coin did the coin use it's "free will" to be found, or did the woman "drag" it into her hand? Where in the parable of the "lost sheep" did the sheep use their "free will" to find the Shepherd, or did the Shepherd "drag" the sheep back to the fold? Here's a helpful hint: If you interpret the parable of the son in a way that CONTRADICTS the other two parables, your interpretation is probably WRONG.
 
Top