Salvation is the Gift of God !

brightfame52

Well-known member
Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I know men have debated whether or not Faith in this passage is the Gift of God. It certainly is with no doubt, in fact everything regarding Salvation in Christ is the Gift of God. Jesus alludes to Himself as being the Gift of God Jn 4:10

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

So Faith as it accompanies Salvation is the Gift of God, and Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit in New Birth is the Gift of God. Yes part of the Saving efficacy of the Cross is giving the New Birth, simply, Christs death for His People effects the Saving Work of the New Birth, that's why He says, speaking of His death Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The drawing here is the immediate effect of being lifted up, which denotes His Death. His death secured the drawing, the New Birth, which the Spirit is guaranteed to work mightily in the sinner He died for, causing the sinner to come to Christ in believing faith. All this is the result of His redeeming death. Rom 8 32


He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The all things includes New Birth, Faith, Repentance, A New workmanship ,all the spiritual blessing stored up in Him for them from before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-4


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I know men have debated whether or not Faith in this passage is the Gift of God. It certainly is with no doubt, in fact everything regarding Salvation in Christ is the Gift of God. Jesus alludes to Himself as being the Gift of God Jn 4:10

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

So Faith as it accompanies Salvation is the Gift of God, and Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit in New Birth is the Gift of God. Yes part of the Saving efficacy of the Cross is giving the New Birth, simply, Christs death for His People effects the Saving Work of the New Birth, that's why He says, speaking of His death Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The drawing here is the immediate effect of being lifted up, which denotes His Death. His death secured the drawing, the New Birth, which the Spirit is guaranteed to work mightily in the sinner He died for, causing the sinner to come to Christ in believing faith. All this is the result of His redeeming death. Rom 8 32


He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The all things includes New Birth, Faith, Repentance, A New workmanship ,all the spiritual blessing stored up in Him for them from before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-4


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
Your reading of Ephesians is defective

The verses you quote pertain to the faithful in Christ not men arbitrarily selected before the world began

Eph. 1:1 —KJV
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus”

It is not the granting of faith and repentance to certain select ones and witholding it from others

Eph. 1:1–13 —KJV
Ҧ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

Rather it is God before the foundation determining that those who are faithful in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in love and be predestined to an inheritance

Individual men become partakers of the promise when they become the faithful in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Your reading of Ephesians is defective

The verses you quote pertain to the faithful in Christ not men arbitrarily selected before the world began

Eph. 1:1 —KJV
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus”

It is not the granting of faith and repentance to certain select ones and witholding it from others

Eph. 1:1–13 —KJV
Ҧ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

Rather it is God before the foundation determining that those who are faithful in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in love and be predestined to an inheritance

Individual men become partakers of the promise when they become the faithful in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit
Do you understand the point I made with scripture ? You as usual appear to evade and start a rabbit trail !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Do you understand the point I made with scripture ? You as usual appear to evade and start a rabbit trail !
Did you deal with your misuse of Ephesians ?

Or are you just avoiding dealing with your errors as typical

The verses you quote pertain to the faithful in Christ not men arbitrarily selected before the world began

Eph. 1:1 —KJV
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus”

It is not the granting of faith and repentance to certain select ones and witholding it from others

Eph. 1:1–13 —KJV
Ҧ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

Rather it is God before the foundation determining that those who are faithful in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in love and be predestined to an inheritance

Individual men become partakers of the promise when they become the faithful in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Did you deal with your misuse of Ephesians ?

Or are you just avoiding dealing with your errors as typical

The verses you quote pertain to the faithful in Christ not men arbitrarily selected before the world began

Eph. 1:1 —KJV
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus”

It is not the granting of faith and repentance to certain select ones and witholding it from others

Eph. 1:1–13 —KJV
Ҧ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

Rather it is God before the foundation determining that those who are faithful in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in love and be predestined to an inheritance

Individual men become partakers of the promise when they become the faithful in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit
So what Im pointing out is that the entirety of Salvation, attended with all of its spiritual blessings, are the result of the death of Christ. Did you understand that ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So what Im pointing out is that the entirety of Salvation, attended with all of its spiritual blessings, are the result of the death of Christ. Did you understand that ?
And do you understand that is not arbitrarily applied but conditioned on faith ?

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
 

Redeemed

Active member
Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I know men have debated whether or not Faith in this passage is the Gift of God. It certainly is with no doubt, in fact everything regarding Salvation in Christ is the Gift of God. Jesus alludes to Himself as being the Gift of God Jn 4:10

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

So Faith as it accompanies Salvation is the Gift of God, and Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit in New Birth is the Gift of God. Yes part of the Saving efficacy of the Cross is giving the New Birth, simply, Christs death for His People effects the Saving Work of the New Birth, that's why He says, speaking of His death Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The drawing here is the immediate effect of being lifted up, which denotes His Death. His death secured the drawing, the New Birth, which the Spirit is guaranteed to work mightily in the sinner He died for, causing the sinner to come to Christ in believing faith. All this is the result of His redeeming death. Rom 8 32


He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The all things includes New Birth, Faith, Repentance, A New workmanship ,all the spiritual blessing stored up in Him for them from before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-4


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

I don't think anyone can deny that the Bible teaches that each believer is chosen by God. If each believer has been chosen by God for salvation before he was even born, then it's going to happen. Jesus did His part on the cross and the Holy Spirit is going to be the active agent in making it happen in God's elect.

I see the following Scriptures as proof of the doctrine of election:

In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons (Ephesians 1:5).

You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain (John 15:16).

For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself (Acts 2:39).

And so, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved (Colossians 3:12).

Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you (1 Thessalonians 1:4).

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him (Matthew 11:27).

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory (2 Timothy 2:10).

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession (1 Peter 2:9).

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies (Romans 8:33 NASB).

In the same way then there has also come to be at the present time a remnant [of believers] according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace (Romans 11:5,6).

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong (1 Corinthians 1:27).

For the faith of those chosen of God (Titus 1:1).

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those...who are chosen (1 Peter 1:1).

For though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls.... And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles (Romans 9:11,23,24).


Could all these verses be clearer? So if the believer is chosen by God for salvation, and especially if this has been an eternal choice, on what basis can a believer logically conclude that God will not fulfill His purposes? Thanks God for our election to eternal salvation.​
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I don't think anyone can deny that the Bible teaches that each believer is chosen by God. If each believer has been chosen by God for salvation before he was even born, then it's going to happen. Jesus did His part on the cross and the Holy Spirit is going to be the active agent in making it happen in God's elect.

I see the following Scriptures as proof of the doctrine of election:

In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons (Ephesians 1:5).

You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain (John 15:16).

For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself (Acts 2:39).

And so, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved (Colossians 3:12).

Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you (1 Thessalonians 1:4).

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him (Matthew 11:27).

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory (2 Timothy 2:10).

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession (1 Peter 2:9).

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies (Romans 8:33 NASB).

In the same way then there has also come to be at the present time a remnant [of believers] according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace (Romans 11:5,6).

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong (1 Corinthians 1:27).

For the faith of those chosen of God (Titus 1:1).

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those...who are chosen (1 Peter 1:1).

For though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls.... And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles (Romans 9:11,23,24).


Could all these verses be clearer? So if the believer is chosen by God for salvation, and especially if this has been an eternal choice, on what basis can a believer logically conclude that God will not fulfill His purposes? Thanks God for our election to eternal salvation.​
You made some good points and showed good scriptures as compliments. Do you believe Gods Election of Individuals to Salvation is unconditional ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I don't think anyone can deny that the Bible teaches that each believer is chosen by God. If each believer has been chosen by God for salvation before he was even born, then it's going to happen. Jesus did His part on the cross and the Holy Spirit is going to be the active agent in making it happen in God's elect.

I see the following Scriptures as proof of the doctrine of election:

In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons (Ephesians 1:5).​
Concerns the Faithful in Christ not individual men arbitrarily chosen
Eph. 1:1 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”



You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain (John 15:16).​

Concerns the apostles John 14


For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself (Acts 2:39).​

???

Promise is to all who repent

And so, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved (Colossians 3:12).

Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you (1 Thessalonians 1:4).

All who believe are elect; included - chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless before God in love

Eph. 1:1–12 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.”



Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Men are chosen only in Christ
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Concerns the Faithful in Christ not individual men arbitrarily chosen
Eph. 1:1 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”




Concerns the apostles John 14



???

Promise is to all who repent

All who believe are elect; included - chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless before God in love

Eph. 1:1–12 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.”



Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Men are chosen only in Christ
Denial, that poster is closer to the truth than you are!
 

Redeemed

Active member
You made some good points and showed good scriptures as compliments. Do you believe Gods Election of Individuals to Salvation is unconditional ?

While that's definitely the reformed view taught by Augustine and John Calvin. The emphasis of this view is the total depravity of mankind, that we are unable to contribute anything to our salvation, that it's all the work of God toward the believer.

Then you have the other side which your is election as conditional, that would be the Arminian view that people have free will and can muster up faith and repentance to receive God's gift of salvation. This view holds that God does not select individuals but he sets up conditions for them to meet. In other words God made us in a way that we were able to choose him IF we jump through the right hoops. I can't see that happening.

Then you have the view where God looks down the corridor of time and sees who's going to accept him or meet the requirements of repentance from sin and faith in Jesus and in His foreknowledge and the election is made available to them if they choose it.

What I believe is that if man were to have his hand in any part of salvation other than being led by the Holy Spirit to do God's will, we would mess it up, very few if any of us would get saved. Jesus is in the salvation business I trust Him I don't trust myself or anyone else like a Pope or something to give me right standing with the Father.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Concerns the Faithful in Christ not individual men arbitrarily chosen
Eph. 1:1 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”




Concerns the apostles John 14



???

Promise is to all who repent

All who believe are elect; included - chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless before God in love

Eph. 1:1–12 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.”



Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Men are chosen only in Christ

Mormons have rationalizations to deny that only one God exists.

Catholics have rationalizations to deny sola Scriptura and faith alone.

JW's have rationalizations to deny the deity of Christ.

And you have rationalizations to deny unconditional election.

So now tell us something we didn't already know...
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
While that's definitely the reformed view taught by Augustine and John Calvin. The emphasis of this view is the total depravity of mankind, that we are unable to contribute anything to our salvation, that it's all the work of God toward the believer.

Then you have the other side which your is election as conditional, that would be the Arminian view that people have free will and can muster up faith and repentance to receive God's gift of salvation. This view holds that God does not select individuals but he sets up conditions for them to meet. In other words God made us in a way that we were able to choose him IF we jump through the right hoops. I can't see that happening.

Then you have the view where God looks down the corridor of time and sees who's going to accept him or meet the requirements of repentance from sin and faith in Jesus and in His foreknowledge and the election is made available to them if they choose it.

What I believe is that if man were to have his hand in any part of salvation other than being led by the Holy Spirit to do God's will, we would mess it up, very few if any of us would get saved. Jesus is in the salvation business I trust Him I don't trust myself or anyone else like a Pope or something to give me right standing with the Father.
Do you believe that God loves or Christ died for any others besides the election of Grace?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Mormons have rationalizations to deny that only one God exists.

Catholics have rationalizations to deny sola Scriptura and faith alone.

JW's have rationalizations to deny the deity of Christ.

And you have rationalizations to deny unconditional election.

So now tell us something we didn't already know...
Totally irrelevant

Do you actually have any proof for the doctrine ?

or can you rebut what was stated

Concerns the Faithful in Christ not individual men arbitrarily chosen
Eph. 1:1 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”




Concerns the apostles John 14



???

Promise is to all who repent

All who believe are elect; included - chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless before God in love

Eph. 1:1–12 —NAS95
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.”



Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Men are chosen only in Christ

.......................................

anything else is just noise
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Men are chosen only in Christ

Where does the BIBLE (not you) say that one must be "in Christ" before one is "chosen"?

And FYI, if you are correct, that would make God "a respecter of persons" (only chooses with respect to them already putting THEMSELVES "in Christ"), and the Bible contradicts you.

.......................................

anything else is just noise

Well, that describes ALL of your posts.
Go figure...
 

Redeemed

Active member
Do you believe that God loves or Christ died for any others besides the election of Grace?

Do I believe that God loves or Christ died for any others besides the election of Grace? Well lets see.

I assume were talking about Predestination that decree of God, by which (according to the counsel of His own will) He foreordained some of mankind to eternal life, and refused or passed by others, for the praise of His glorious mercy and justice. Some are vessels of mercy, others are vessels of wrath.

"Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; And that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared before for glory" (Rom 9:21-23).

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). [see Mal. 1:2, 3.]
What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God’s part? Certainly not! Romans 9:13–14

Paul's not done he's got more for us

15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. [Exod. 33:19.]
16 So then [God’s gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God’s mercy. [It depends not on one’s own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God’s having mercy on him.]
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.
18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.
19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?
20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? [Isa. 29:16; 45:9.]
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?
22 What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction? [Prov. 16:4.]
23 And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,
24 Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)?

Okay so far so good. Oh but wait... What about John 3:16?

Understanding how undeserving the world is of God’s love is the key to John 3:16. Only then will we appreciate the unexpected gift that God gives. This point was well made many years ago by the esteemed theologian Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield. In his sermon “God’s Immeasurable Love,” Warfield probes the meaning of the term “world” (Greek kosmos) in John 3:16 in order to plumb the depths of God’s love.

What is the meaning of “world” in this passage? Drawing from the insights of Warfield, there are four possible answers:

In the first place, many people believe that “world” means all people without exception. In other words, when John 3:16 says that God loves the world, it means that He loves every person, head for head, equally. The logic goes something like this: God loves every person; Christ died for every person; therefore, salvation is possible for every person. However, this view seems to suggest that God’s love is impotent and Christ’s death is ineffectual. Otherwise, the natural conclusion of this position would be that every person is actually saved rather than just potentially saved.

If God loves every person, and Christ died for every person, and God’s love is not impotent, and Christ’s death is not ineffectual, then the only conclusion one can draw is that salvation has been secured for every person. Yet this viewpoint contradicts the Bible’s teaching on God’s judgment as is evidenced by the immediate context in John 3:17–21.

Second, others argue that “world” means all people without distinction. This option emphasizes that God loves more than one type of person or ethnic group. The death of Christ on the cross was not only for Jews but also for Gentiles. The love of God is not confined to national boundaries but extends to all kinds of nations, tribes, cultures, tongues, and peoples.

To this, all God’s people––Arminian and Calvinist alike––say a hearty “Amen.” While this view has the benefit of being undoubtedly right and fits within the larger context of John’s gospel concerning the global identity of the “children of God” (e.g., John 1:9–13; 4:42), it doesn’t quite capture the jolting contrast between “God so loved” and “the world” that John 3:16 deliberately draws.

Third, a popular nuance of the previous option among Reformed theologians is to argue that “world” in John 3:16 refers to the elect.
Throughout John’s gospel, Jesus emphasizes the particularity of His grace.

“All that the Father gives me will come to me” (6:37).

“I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me….I lay down my life for the sheep” (10:14–18).

“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (15:9).

“I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours” (17:9).

The point is that God’s people are chosen from an unbelieving world. Again, this view strikes an important note by underscoring the biblical doctrine of election, but the focus of the term “world” in John 3:16 is not so much on the identity of God’s people but on the nature of God’s love.

This leads us to the final option. A solid case can be made for believing that “world” refers to the quality of God’s love. This is so cool

Warfield convincingly states:
[World] is not here a term of extension so much as a term of intensity. Its primary connotation is ethical, and the point of its employment is not to suggest that the world is so big that it takes a great deal of love to embrace it all, but that the world is so bad that it takes a great kind of love to love it at all, and much more to love it as God has loved it when he gave his Son for it.

The world represents sinful humanity and is not worthy of God’s saving love. Apart from the love of God, the world stands under God’s condemnation. But in Christ, believers experience God’s surprising, redeeming, and never-ending love. John 3:16 is not about the greatness of the world but about the greatness of God.

I believe Salvation is all about God and His LOVE not about us.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Where does the BIBLE (not you) say that one must be "in Christ" before one is "chosen"?
Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are choses in Christ

When are they in Christ ?

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

when they believe

And FYI, if you are correct, that would make God "a respecter of persons" (only chooses with respect to them already putting THEMSELVES "in Christ"), and the Bible contradicts you.

No that would not make God a respecter of persons. Only an unequal application would make that so

Well, that describes ALL of your posts.
Go figure...

I notice you neither supplied a verse that speaks of unconditional election to salvation or attempted to rebut what
I stated

Why am I not surprised ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are choses in Christ

"Men are choses"?
And you think that's supposed to make sense?

When are they in Christ ?

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

when they believe

Sorry, that does NOT say "men are not in Christ until they believe".
Would you care to try to EXEGETE the text, instead of simply making self-serving ASSUMPTIONS about what the text means?

No that would not make God a respecter of persons. Only an unequal application would make that so

Sorry, but "Nuh-huh" is NOT a valid response.

I notice you neither supplied a verse that speaks of unconditional election to salvation or attempted to rebut what I stated

That's because I have no need to.
YOU are the one who is UNABLE to defend your false beliefs in the first place.

Why am I not surprised ?

Logical fallacy.. Trying to shift the burden of proof.

It's not my burden to "disprove" your false claims.
It's YOUR burden to try to PROVE them.
And so far, you have failed miserably.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
"Men are choses"?
And you think that's supposed to make sense?

Chosen

Don't tell me you could not figure that out either

Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are chosen in Christ
Sorry, that does NOT say "men are not in Christ until they believe".

You ignored the next verse

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

When are they sealed in Christ Theo

After they believe

Its right there in front of you Theo

A similar idea to being in Christ is being baptized into Christ

Gal. 3:25–27 —NAS95
“But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

and that is likewise through faith
 
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