Salvation is the Gift of God !

Theo1689

Well-known member
Chosen

Don't tell me you could not figure that out either

Don't tell me you can't figure out how to spell correctly...

Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are chosen in Christ

Yes... Now let's discuss what that actually MEANS, rather than you simply ASSUMING a meaning.


You ignored the next verse

<sigh>

You need to stop being so insulting, okay?
I did NOT "ignore" the verse.

I READ the verse.
I BELIEVE the verse.
The verse simply doesn't say what you falsely CLAIM it says.

And you REFUSE (for whatever reason, I cannot fathom) to actually DEMONSTRATE your view by EXEGETING the verse.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Do I believe that God loves or Christ died for any others besides the election of Grace? Well lets see.

I assume were talking about Predestination that decree of God, by which (according to the counsel of His own will) He foreordained some of mankind to eternal life, and refused or passed by others, for the praise of His glorious mercy and justice. Some are vessels of mercy, others are vessels of wrath.

"Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; And that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared before for glory" (Rom 9:21-23).

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). [see Mal. 1:2, 3.]
What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God’s part? Certainly not! Romans 9:13–14

Paul's not done he's got more for us

15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. [Exod. 33:19.]
16 So then [God’s gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God’s mercy. [It depends not on one’s own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God’s having mercy on him.]
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.
18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.
19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?
20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? [Isa. 29:16; 45:9.]
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?
22 What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction? [Prov. 16:4.]
23 And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,
24 Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)?

Okay so far so good. Oh but wait... What about John 3:16?

Understanding how undeserving the world is of God’s love is the key to John 3:16. Only then will we appreciate the unexpected gift that God gives. This point was well made many years ago by the esteemed theologian Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield. In his sermon “God’s Immeasurable Love,” Warfield probes the meaning of the term “world” (Greek kosmos) in John 3:16 in order to plumb the depths of God’s love.

What is the meaning of “world” in this passage? Drawing from the insights of Warfield, there are four possible answers:



I believe Salvation is all about God and His LOVE not about us.
Okay it's important to realize in the bb warfield quote, that the love of God is said to be saving love for the world. If that's the case then God's love is particularly for those He actually saves. Eph 2:4-5

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes... Now let's discuss what that actually MEANS, rather than you simply ASSUMING a meaning.


Theo1689 said:
Sorry, that does NOT say "men are not in Christ until they believe".

Yeah it does

As noted you ignored Eph 1:13
<sigh>

You need to stop being so insulting, okay?
I did NOT "ignore" the verse.

You are a real hoot

Your are insulted when someone points out you neglected a verse after you just called them irrational




I READ the verse.
I BELIEVE the verse.
The verse simply doesn't say what you falsely CLAIM it says.

And you REFUSE (for whatever reason, I cannot fathom) to actually DEMONSTRATE your view by EXEGETING the verse.

So what did you do with the verse other than to claim you believe it (but you actually do no)

You didn't address it

All you offered was denial

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Do you not see the words in Him - that is in Christ

The Ephesians were sealed in Christ

When are they sealed in Christ Theo

After they believe

Yeah men are in Christ after believing

Its right there in front of you Theo

A similar idea to being in Christ is being baptized into Christ

Gal. 3:25–27 —NAS95
“But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

and that is likewise through faith

You need to accept the fact as it is rather plain
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sorry, that does NOT say "men are not in Christ until they believe".
Would you care to try to EXEGETE the text, instead of simply making self-serving ASSUMPTIONS about what the text means?




Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are chosen in Christ
Theo1689 said:
Sorry, that does NOT say "men are not in Christ until they believe".
Yeah it plainly does

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

In him Theo

Do you see it

that is in Christ

When are they sealed in Christ according to the text Theo

After they believe

Its right there in front of you Theo

A similar idea to being in Christ is being baptized into Christ

Gal. 3:25–27 —NAS95
“But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

and that is likewise through faith

I have provided my evidence and all you do is ignore it
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are chosen in Christ

Yeah it plainly does

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

In him Theo

Do you see it

that is in Christ

When are they sealed in Christ according to the text Theo

After they believe

Its right there in front of you Theo

A similar idea to being in Christ is being baptized into Christ

Gal. 3:25–27 —NAS95
“But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

and that is likewise through faith

I have provided my evidence and all you do is ignore it

You never EXEGETE passages.
You simply REPEAT your same old errant opinion, over and over.

And that's not the least bit convincing.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You never EXEGETE passages.
You simply REPEAT your same old errant opinion, over and over.

And that's not the least bit convincing.
I don't think you know what exegeting a verse means

and all you ever offer is denial

Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are chosen in Christ

Yeah it plainly does

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

In him Theo

Do you see it

He Never answers

that is in Christ

When are they sealed in Christ according to the text Theo

He never answers

After they believe

He never responds

Its right there in front of you Theo

its obvious but still no response

A similar idea to being in Christ is being baptized into Christ

Gal. 3:25–27 —NAS95
“But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

and that is likewise through faith

Of course he does not respond
.................................

Further it is rather mindboggling that you cannot comprehend that being in Christ is to be in union with Christ. to be in a relationship

and there is simply no way to be in union with Christ if you do not believe on him

this is so basic it is hard to believe anyone could actually miss it

but then other obvious relationships you were unable to see either
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yeah it does

As noted you ignored Eph 1:13


You are a real hoot

Your are insulted when someone points out you neglected a verse after you just called them irrational






So what did you do with the verse other than to claim you believe it (but you actually do no)

You didn't address it

All you offered was denial

Eph. 1:13 —NAS95
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Do you not see the words in Him - that is in Christ

The Ephesians were sealed in Christ

When are they sealed in Christ Theo

After they believe

Yeah men are in Christ after believing

Its right there in front of you Theo

A similar idea to being in Christ is being baptized into Christ

Gal. 3:25–27 —NAS95
“But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

and that is likewise through faith

You need to accept the fact as it is rather plain
See
You never EXEGETE passages.
You simply REPEAT your same old errant opinion, over and over.

And that's not the least bit convincing.
He right about men being chosen in Christ, he in error as to when however . Before the foundation of world Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He denies the truth of this scripture !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
See

He right about men being chosen in Christ, he in error as to when however . Before the foundation of world Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He denies the truth of this scripture !
No just your erroneous interpretation

The us is the faithful in Christ not some men arbitrarily chosen which the text never mentions

God before the foundatin chose that the faithful in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in love

No one is in Christ before they believed

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
A passage that clearly indicates that all of Salvation, to include New Birth and Conversion is the direct effect of Christs Death [which many man made religions deny] is right here Jn 12:23-34

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

I believe Jesus here is referring to Himself here as the Corn of Wheat which fall into the ground and die [speaking of His Death] and if it die [which He did] it bringeth forth much fruit. The fruit here is Salvation, Spiritual Life and Conversion, which entails Faith and Repentance. See Faith and Repentance are but Fruit from His Death.. The word fruit karpos means:
    1. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity
  1. that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

    Notice the word means effect, results. Its talking about effecting the Salvation of those He died for, His Seed. Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word seed also means

offspring, descendants, posterity, children

The word also means fruitful Gen 48 4

And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed H2233 after thee for an everlasting possession.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I don't think you know what exegeting a verse means

<sigh>
More personal insult.
It seems to be the only thing you're capable of.



and all you ever offer is denial

Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are chosen in Christ

Yeah, and so what's your point?
Again, all you do is quote Scripture, but you never EXEGETE the text. What do YOU think "chosen in Christ" MEANS? Explain it to me, so I can understand YOUR interpretation. But you constantly refuse to do so.

You are forcing me to guess, and then you'll say I guessed wrong, and then you'll STILL not tell me what your interpretation is, and so we will get exactly NOWHERE. That is the stupid game you want to keep playing.

Okay, since you won't share your "private interpretation" with us, I'm going to have to guess.

I'm thinking you think it means:

"just as He chose us because we already put ourselves in Him before the foundation of the world,"

Okay, so the first thing is that that is a LOT OF WORDS ADDED to the text. And that is called "eisegesis", projecting your false theology INTO the text, which is the exact OPPOSITE of "exegesis".

Secondly, your misinterpretation CONTRADICTS that very verse, since it EXPLICITLY says that they were chosen "before the foundation of the world".

Do YOU see THAT?
"Before the foundation of the world"?

So you are clearly wrong in your interpretation of this verse.

In him Theo

Do you see it

<sigh>
More insults.
Yes, I "see it".
Can you EXEGETE it?
And can you exegete it in a way that doesn't CONTRADICT the text itself?
Nope, you can't.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
<sigh>
More personal insult.
It seems to be the only thing you're capable of.

You make me laugh it all you ever offer in response to the scriptures I post

Look below


Eph. 1:4 —NAS95
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”

Men are chosen in Christ
Yeah, and so what's your point?

Its a simple syllogism

1 Men are Chosen in Christ

2 Men are in Christ when they believe

Therefore men are chosen when they believe

Its a rather plain argument


Again, all you do is quote Scripture, but you never EXEGETE the text. What do YOU think "chosen in Christ" MEANS? Explain it to me, so I can understand YOUR interpretation. But you constantly refuse to do so.

If you did not understand the phrase you only had to ask I cannot read your mind

It means men are chosen (elect) only in union with Christ

"just as He chose us because we already put ourselves in Him before the foundation of the world,"

Sorry that does not appear in the text and that does not resemble anything I stated

What the passage does state is God chose before the foundation of the earth the faithful in Christ would be holy and blameless before him in Love

and predestined them

Secondly, your misinterpretation CONTRADICTS that very verse, since it EXPLICITLY says that they were chosen "before the foundation of the world".

There was no one in Christ before the foundation of earth

The verse is speaking of those who would be in Christ (the faithful in Christ) the us the passage is addressed to

because verse 13 plainly tells us men are sealed in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

They are not in Christ before the foundation of the earth but in time

as Paul shows when he states

Rom. 16:7 —KJV
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

There were men in Christ before Paul so he was not in Christ before the foundation of the earth

Do YOU see THAT?
"Before the foundation of the world"?

Yeah and it does not help you

before the foundation of the God chose that the faithful in Christ would be be holy and blameless

He is not selecting men to be in Christ

But choosing that the faithful in Christ would be holy and blame less before him

But it is in time men are found to be in Christ

as was shown above
 
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Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So then this verse doesn't say faith is a gift of God; it says salvation is a gift of God. Right?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I know men have debated whether or not Faith in this passage is the Gift of God. It certainly is with no doubt, in fact everything regarding Salvation in Christ is the Gift of God. Jesus alludes to Himself as being the Gift of God Jn 4:10

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

So Faith as it accompanies Salvation is the Gift of God, and Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit in New Birth is the Gift of God. Yes part of the Saving efficacy of the Cross is giving the New Birth, simply, Christs death for His People effects the Saving Work of the New Birth, that's why He says, speaking of His death Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The drawing here is the immediate effect of being lifted up, which denotes His Death. His death secured the drawing, the New Birth, which the Spirit is guaranteed to work mightily in the sinner He died for, causing the sinner to come to Christ in believing faith. All this is the result of His redeeming death. Rom 8 32


He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The all things includes New Birth, Faith, Repentance, A New workmanship ,all the spiritual blessing stored up in Him for them from before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-4


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Faith precedes salvation

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Faith accompanies Salvation, and its the fruit of the Spirit, which is also the Gift of God Acts 2 38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8 19 20


saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 10 45



And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Faith precedes salvation

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Faith comes with Salvation, it's a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Faith comes with Salvation, it's a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22
Nope

The Fruit of the spirit is for those already indwelt by the holy Spirit

but one needs faith before he receives the Holy Spirit

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Gal. 3:14 —KJV
“That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
 
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