"salvific theology"

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie said:
IF you wish to discuss Christian salvific theology, I will be happy to do so with you.
That was the response I got after posting these scriptures--and relating these scriptures are LDS theology.

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--are there any here who do not believe the Biblical scriptures above are salvific?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That was the response I got after posting these scriptures--and relating these scriptures are LDS theology.

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
That's talking about the dead, not the living (you can tell because, "graves".
Why do you constantly rip passages out of context?!

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--are there any here who do not believe the Biblical scriptures above are salvific?

Of course the above is true.
But you have to PERFECTLY keep the commandments, and nobody can do that.

As I've already explained to you TWICE today, the purpose of the law, according to Paul, is NOT to lead us to "earning" salvation by our works/obedience, but to CONVICT us of our SIN (Rom. 3:19-20), and lead us to CHRIST (Gal. 3:24-25), who saves His people by His blood.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Good post, theo. But I asked the mods to move this thread to Apologetics or Theology, since it seems to me it is off topic for Mormonism. I would be happy to discuss it with anyone on that board.

There is ONLY ONE WAY for us to keep the commandments perfectly, 24/7 never stumbling once. And it is NOT by our own power. You and I know that one way. Those enslaved in works righteous cults and churches do NOT, sadly.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Hey Theo and dberrie--this got moved! yay!

Anyway, to continue, there is ONLY one way to keep all of God's commandments perfectly in this life. Do you know that one and only way? I am sure you must. :) And it is NOT by our own power. God's word tells us how:

Romans 8 New International Version (NIV)​

Life Through the Spirit​

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

the Righteous requirements of the Law are fulfilled in us, when we live according to the Spirit, Who indwells each and every true Christian.

Paul also states:

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 New American Standard Bible (NASB)​

30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

it is GOD's doing that we are in Christ Jesus, so that Jesus has become our wisdom, our RIGHTEOUSNESS, our sanctification, and our REDEMPTION. Our attempts to keep the law perfectly will always fail. But Jesus kept all the law perfectly, in our stead. When we have faith in Him unto salvation, HIS perfect keeping of the Law is transferred and imputed to us, thus making us perfect in our Heavenly Father's eyes. But it is JESUS' perfection that God sees in us, not our own--for we have none of our own to boast about.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Of course the above is true.
But you have to PERFECTLY keep the commandments, and nobody can do that.
Where does it state one must be perfect in keeping the commandments? Or where does it state one not keeping the commandments perfectly absolves them from keeping the commandments?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in

I thought it was the gospel of grace--where one can repent and change, whenever we stumble.

So--do you believe that just so you don't have perfect faith--then faith isn't required?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
There is ONLY ONE WAY for us to keep the commandments perfectly, 24/7 never stumbling once. And it is NOT by our own power. You and I know that one way. Those enslaved in works righteous cults and churches do NOT, sadly.
So--a couple of questions:

1) Do you feel there is also only way to have faith? Do you feel because you don't have perfect faith--it isn't required of you for salvation?

2) Where do we find any scripture which waves the command to obey the commandments?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--is that an example of "works righteous cults"?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
it is GOD's doing that we are in Christ Jesus, so that Jesus has become our wisdom, our RIGHTEOUSNESS, our sanctification, and our REDEMPTION. Our attempts to keep the law perfectly will always fail. But Jesus kept all the law perfectly, in our stead. When we have faith in Him unto salvation, HIS perfect keeping of the Law is transferred and imputed to us, thus making us perfect in our Heavenly Father's eyes. But it is JESUS' perfection that God sees in us, not our own--for we have none of our own to boast about.
If that is true--then why are all men judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Bonnie--please do show us where it states in the scriptures our choices play no part in obtaining God's grace unto life?

Matthew 16:27--King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

That only shows faith alone theology is false, IMO.
 

John t

Active member
Matthew 5:
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,​
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.​
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?​
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?​
48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Oh, how you Mormons love to criticize our Bible, but your remembrance of things like this seem to falter at times.
 

John t

Active member
Bonnie--please do show us where it states in the scriptures our choices play no part in obtaining God's grace unto life?


For the millionth time:

Romans 4:
1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?​
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.​
Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—​
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

So your next most likely tactic in this tiresome edit refusal to comprehend what is written in Scripture is to attempt to say that Paul did not write those words
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Where does it state one must be perfect in keeping the commandments? Or where does it state one not keeping the commandments perfectly absolves them from keeping the commandments?

<Chuckle>

"James 2" seems to be one of the FEW chapters that have made it into the Mormon "Bible", but even there, Mormons seem to have blind spots.

Seriously, if you're going to quote from James 2 so much, you probably should have a FAR better understanding of what it says:

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

Why does Paul write the following if only a "90%" grade in "law-keeping" was good enough?

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

So--do you believe that just so you don't have perfect faith--then faith isn't required?

"So you're saying...?"
"So you're saying...?"
"So you're saying...?"

<sigh>
You're just as bad as Cathy Newman interviewing Jordan Peterson, in your misrepresentation of others.

We were discussing WORKS, not "faith".

Matt. 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

Clearly you are completely ignorant of Scripture.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
So--a couple of questions:

1) Do you feel there is also only way to have faith? Do you feel because you don't have perfect faith--it isn't required of you for salvation?

2) Where do we find any scripture which waves the command to obey the commandments?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--is that an example of "works righteous cults"?
Hebrews says that Jesus is the author AND PERFECTOR of our faith. And Paul wrote this:

Romans 12:3 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Faith is the gift of God. Our works are perfected in Him, Who alone kept all of God's commandments perfectly, since we cannot. HIS perfect keeping of the commandments is then credited to us by grace through faith in HIM and His finished work of the cross. I already explained this in my last post. I get tired of repeating myself.
 

civic

Active member
That was the response I got after posting these scriptures--and relating these scriptures are LDS theology.

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--are there any here who do not believe the Biblical scriptures above are salvific?
 

civic

Active member
That was the response I got after posting these scriptures--and relating these scriptures are LDS theology.

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--are there any here who do not believe the Biblical scriptures above are salvific?
what planet do you get to populate and when will you become a god like your founder ?
 

Gary Mac

Member
Good post, theo. But I asked the mods to move this thread to Apologetics or Theology, since it seems to me it is off topic for Mormonism. I would be happy to discuss it with anyone on that board.

There is ONLY ONE WAY for us to keep the commandments perfectly, 24/7 never stumbling once. And it is NOT by our own power. You and I know that one way. Those enslaved in works righteous cults and churches do NOT, sadly.
May I enquire of you that when I post the same thing that there is only one way to be perfect and never stumble by God being our own disposition as you just posted you always accuse me of heresy and not of God?
 

Gary Mac

Member
what planet do you get to populate and when will you become a god like your founder ?
Matthew 16:15-17
He[Jesus]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Funny how people can read Matt 16 and still falsely accuse Jesus of being God when he is very clear that God reveled who Jesus was as His son.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Funny how people can read Matt 16 and still falsely accuse Jesus of being God when he is very clear that God reveled who Jesus was as His son.

Yes, the FATHER revealed to Peter who Jesus was.

That doesn't meant that Jesus isn't deity/God.
It simply means that Jesus isn't the FATHER.

You seem to have great difficulty understanding the Scriptures.

Isa. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...]. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [Ref. to Ex. 3:14, Ps. 90:2] 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Tit. 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2Pet. 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained aa faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


There is a reason that the Apostolic Fathers continued this thoroughly Biblical teaching:

[Please note: The references to "Eph" and "Rom" here are not to the Biblical epistles, but to the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, to the same cities.]


1Clem. 16:2 The scepter of the majesty of God, even our Lord Jesus Christ, came not in the pomp of arrogance or of pride, though He might have done so, but in lowliness of mind, according as the Holy Spirit spake concerning Him.

2Clem. 1:1 Brethren, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ, as of God, as of the Judge of quick and dead.

Eph. 1:0 Ignatius, also called Theophorus, sends heartiest good wishes for unalloyed joy in Jesus Christ to the Church at Ephesus in Asia; a church deserving of felicitation, blessed, as she is, with greatness through the fullness of God the Father; predestined, before time was, to be—to her abiding and unchanging glory—forever united and chosen, through real suffering, by the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God.

Eph. 17:2 Why do we not all become wise, having received knowledge of God, that is, Jesus Christ! Why do we perish in folly, failing to appreciate the gift which the Lord has sent us in truth!

Eph. 18:2 The fact is, our God Jesus Christ was conceived by Mary according to God’s dispensation of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit. He was born and was baptized, that by His Passion He might consecrate the water.

Tral. 7:1 So, then, beware of such! And you will do so if you are not puffed up and cling inseparably to God Jesus Christ, to the bishop, and to the precepts of the Apostles.

Rom. 1:0 Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High Father and of Jesus Christ, His only Son; the church by the will of Him who willed all things that exist, beloved and illuminated through the faith and love of Jesus Christ our God; which also presides in the chief place of the Roman territory; a church worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of felicitation, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding in love, maintaining the law of Christ, and bearer of the Father’s name: her do I therefore salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. Heartiest good wishes for unimpaired joy in Jesus Christ our God, to those who are united in flesh and spirit by every commandment of His; who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them. 1 By prayer to God I have obtained the favor of seeing your venerable faces; in fact, I have been pleading for an even greater favor: as a prisoner in Christ Jesus I hope to embrace you, provided it is His will that I should be privileged to reach the goal.

Rom. 3:3 Nothing that is seen is good. Our God Jesus Christ certainly is the more clearly seen now that He is in the Father. Whenever Christianity is hated by the world, what counts is not power of persuasion, but greatness.

Smyr. 1:1 I extol Jesus Christ, the God who has granted you such wisdom. For I have observed that you are thoroughly trained in unshaken faith, being nailed, as it were, to the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ both in body and in soul, and that you are well established in love through the Blood of Christ and firmly believe in Our Lord: He is really of the line of David according to the flesh, and the Son of God by the will and power of God; was really born of a virgin, and baptized by John in order to comply with every ordinance.

Smyr. 10:1 As to Philo and Rheus Agathopus, who accompanied me in the name of God, it was good of you to give them a warm reception as to servants of Christ God. For their part, they thank the Lord on your behalf, because you offered them losers.

Poly. 8:3 I say good-bye to you all forever in Jesus Christ our God, through whom I wish you to be united with God and under His watchful eye. Farewell in the Lord!

Phili. 12:2 Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High-priest Himself the [Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth, and in all gentleness and in all avoidance of wrath and in forbearance and long suffering and in patient endurance and in purity; and may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints, and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that raised him from the dead.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
May I enquire of you that when I post the same thing that there is only one way to be perfect and never stumble by God being our own disposition as you just posted you always accuse me of heresy and not of God?
You wrote a lot of stuff on the last board that is unbiblical, and sometimes nearly incomprehensible, except to yourself.

Having Christ's righteousness credited to us isn't the same thing as "God being our own disposition." So, no guarantees about what I will or will not post to you in response to YOUR posts.
posts.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Faith is the gift of God. Our works are perfected in Him, Who alone kept all of God's commandments perfectly, since we cannot.
Again--how does that compute into obeying the commandments not being required?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

John 14:15--King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


HIS perfect keeping of the commandments is then credited to us by grace through faith in HIM and His finished work of the cross. I already explained this in my last post. I get tired of repeating myself.
If that is true--then could you explain why all are judged according to their works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
For the millionth time:

Romans 4:
1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?​
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.​
The reason Abraham didn't do works--is because Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

Have you read the scripture?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes,


Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—​
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

So your next most likely tactic in this tiresome, trollish refusal to comprehend what is written in Scripture is to attempt to say that Paul did not write those words
OK--Paul didn't believe one was saved through the Mosaic Law--and?

Paul did testify works and His grace are connected--but in accordance with obedience to the gospel:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
 
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