Sam Shamoun Vs Matt Slick: Is Limited Atonement Biblical?

Septextura

Active member
I wish the debate didn't get stuck on Colossians and proceeded on how faith is applied to the elect, as Charlie pointed out in the live chat.

God opened Lydia's heart so she can believe the gospel preached by Paul. If a surgeon removes your eye cataract, can you make a willing choice to accept or reject the vision after the surgery? It makes no sense, and Arminians add this "acceptance" causal step that simply isn't there in the text.

Acts 16:14
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where does it say "them that accepted the gift of faith"? Nowhere. And since it's all God's doing, none of man's, then we must ask ourselves why God saves some and not all. Welcome to Limited Atonement.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
 

civic

Active member
I love sam but he is dead wrong with Colosians 1:16-20 when he applies reconciliation to satan and demons. Jesus atonement is only for mankind, His death is only for human beings not angelic beings.

Matt is correct here and sam is teaching a heretical doctrine including satan in the atonement and covering of sin and reconciliation.

This is where we must consider the whole of scripture and not isolate a text such as Colossians 1:20 to include satan and his demons.

A text without the context is a pretext for a proof text.
 

civic

Active member
Q/A approximately 2:13 minutes in was how can one know they are elect. One thing that was left out is that we have passed from death into life, we are new creations in Christ, the old has passed and all things have become new. Besides knowing and believing the TRUTH regarding the Gospel, the Person of Christ would be the changed live via the Holy Spirit in us, we now love God and hate sin, we desire to please and follow Jesus and love what is good and abhor what is evil. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His where we can cry out Abba Father. One who is born again is life changing. Just as there is a time and place for ones physical birth the same is true with our Spiritual Birth, regeneration.

This is what my answer would be to that question.

hope this helps !!!
 

e v e

Active member
I wish the debate didn't get stuck on Colossians and proceeded on how faith is applied to the elect, as Charlie pointed out in the live chat.

God opened Lydia's heart so she can believe the gospel preached by Paul. If a surgeon removes your eye cataract, can you make a willing choice to accept or reject the vision after the surgery? It makes no sense, and Arminians add this "acceptance" causal step that simply isn't there in the text.

Acts 16:14


John 6


Romans 8:30


Where does it say "them that accepted the gift of faith"? Nowhere. And since it's all God's doing, none of man's, then we must ask ourselves why God saves some and not all. Welcome to Limited Atonement.

Romans 12:3


Proverbs 21:1


post is not logical. God is not a monster.
 

Septextura

Active member
I love sam but he is dead wrong with Colosians 1:16-20 when he applies reconciliation to satan and demons.

Oh, it does apply to Satan, by throwing him out of heaven and bounding him until his judgment day comes.

I read Colossians 1:15-22 as Christ taking full dominion of the creation as God incarnate. It's concentrated consolidated power and absolute rule. Delegated dominion to principalities and powers was taken away. Like an Absolute monarch throwing out corrupt feudal lords out of his kingdom. There can be no peace and human reconciliation to God otherwise.

Colossians 1
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Fullness means power and dominion.

Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

That old serpent that deceived the nations, the liar and murderer, the accuser of brethren, together with his gang await judgment. Christ blotted out all the sin debt for his chosen remnant to which God will show mercy, and everyone else will serve as demonstration of God's just wrath together with Satan in the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Isaiah 27
1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
 
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Septextura

Active member
post is not logical. God is not a monster.

I'd say your opinion of man is too elevated.

Isaiah 40:17
All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

Genesis 6
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
God opened Lydia's heart so she can believe the gospel preached by Paul. If a surgeon removes your eye cataract, can you make a willing choice to accept or reject the vision after the surgery? It makes no sense, and Arminians add this "acceptance" causal step that simply isn't there in the text.

Acts 16:14
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
What does the Text say of Lydia
a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God

This is before her heart was opened to heed Paul

She was a worshipper of God




John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And how is it they are drawn

John 6:45 —ESV
“It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”

By hearing and learning from God

And that was before the cross

After the cross

John 12:32 —ESV
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.””

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Context matters who is Romans 8:30 speaking about

Rom. 8:28–29 —ESV
“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

Those who love God and were foreknown by him

Not unconditionally elected men from before the foundation of the earth


.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Once again context matters

Rom. 12:1–5 —ESV
“¶ I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.¶ For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.”

He is speaking of those in the church

and faith for service

Rom. 12:4–8 —ESV
“For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”

It says nothing at all about saving faith
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What does the Text say of Lydia
a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God

This is before her heart was opened to heed Paul

She was a worshipper of God

And so your point is.......... ?

And how is it they are drawn

John 6:45 —ESV
“It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”

Again, you quote Scripture, but you never give your interpretation of it, which makes discussion difficult.

Do you mind exegeting this verse, and explaining to us how you interpret it, or do we have to guess what your interpretation is?

John 12:32 —ESV
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.””

You keep quoting verses, but never share your interpretation of it.
So you don't to leave anything open to discussion.

Calvinists believe ALL the verses of Scripture, even the ones you quote.
So if you're not going to share your understanding of them, all we can do is respond, "Amen!" We love those Scriptures!"

Rom. 8:28–29 —ESV
“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

And all the Calvinists said, "Amen"!

Those who love God and were foreknown by him

In my experience, most non-Calvinists assume a meaning for "foreknown" that doesn't match with the Biblical text.

Do you want to share with us what you think "foreknown" means, or do we have to guess what your understanding is?

Not unconditionally elected men from before the foundation of the earth

Where does it say "not unconditionally elected men"?

Once again context matters

Yes, it certainly does.

Rom. 12:1–5 —ESV
“¶ I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.¶ For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.”

He is speaking of those in the church

and faith for service

Rom. 12:4–8 —ESV
“For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”

It says nothing at all about saving faith

Um, okay..... So you don't believe faith saves.
Got it.
 
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Septextura

Active member
Hi @TomFL

The Pharisees worshipped God but rejected Christ and the gospel.

Romans 11
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear), unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

He is speaking of those in the church
Yes, the ones God granted faith to. If you believed the gospel on your own volition, you'd have something to boast. Even Lydia can't boast any merit in her salvation.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
And so your point is.......... ?

The point Lydia was not some God hater who God suddenly regenerated to believe Paul
Again, you quote Scripture, but you never give your interpretation of it, which makes discussion difficult.

What part of this explanation of how God draws at that point in redemptive history is not clear to you ?

And how is it they are drawn

John 6:45 —ESV
“It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”
Do you mind executing this verse, and explaining to us how you interpret it, or do we have to guess what your interpretation is?

How do you execute a verse ?
You keep quoting verses, but never share your interpretation of it.
So you don't to leave anything open to discussion.

It should have been clear there was a change from God drawing

to Christ drawing all men after the cross



Calvinists believe ALL the verses of Scripture, even the ones you quote.
So if you're not going to share your understanding of them, all we can do is respond, "Amen!" We love those Scriptures!"



And all the Calvinists said, "Amen"!



In my experience, most non-Calvinists assume a meaning for "foreknown" that doesn't match with the Biblical text.

Do you want to share with us what you think "foreknown" means, or do we have to guess what your understanding is?

Knew before

Now do you have any evidence that does not match the biblical record
Where does it say "not unconditionally elected men"?

The point is does not say unconditionally elected men though Calvinist assume such
Yes, it certainly does.



Um, okay..... So you don't believe faith saves.
Got it.

You are somewhat confused the discussion concerns what the passage is speaking of and it is not saving faith.


Rom. 12:1–5 —ESV
“¶ I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.¶ For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.”

He is speaking of those in the church

and faith for service

Rom. 12:4–8 —ESV
“For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”

your reply is simply confused
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The point Lydia was not some God hater who God suddenly regenerated to believe Paul

You seem to be ASSUMING that since she worshipped God, that means she was regenerated.
Care to PROVE that assumption?

What part of this explanation of how God draws at that point in redemptive history is not clear to you ?

I could ask the same question of you.
You quoted John 6:45.
I love that verse, and understand it very well.
But you seem to interpret it differently.

The only problem is that you refuse to actually EXPLAIN how you interpret it.
So when you refuse to do that, no "discussion" is possible.

And how is it they are drawn

John 6:45 —ESV
“It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”

So what part of that don't you understand?
You seem to be ASSUMING that it contradicts Calvinism in some way.
But if you don't explain HOW you think it does, then we can't correct your misinterpretation.

How do you execute a verse ?

Is this supposed to be a joke?

It should have been clear there was a change from God drawing

to Christ drawing all men after the cross

So now you're denying John 6:44, and you're citing 12:32 as evidence that you reject 6:44?
That seems ill-advised, if you don't mind my saying so.

Knew before

From BDAG:

προγινώσκω (Eur., X., Pla. et al.; BGU 1141, 39 [14 BC]; Wsd) 2 aor. προέγνων, ptc. προγνούς. Pass.: aor. 3 sg. προεγνώσθη Wsd 18:6; pf. ptc. προεγνωσμένος; plpf. 3 sg. προέγνωστο (Just., D. 70, 5)
1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth. (Philo, Somn. 1, 2; Jos., Vi. 106; Tat. 8, 4) affliction Hs 7:5. Abs. (Jos., Ant. 2, 86) προγινώσκοντες since you know this (i.e. what the context makes clear) in advance 2 Pt 3:17. Of God (Alex. Aphr., An. p. 1, 7 Br. τὰ μέλλοντα, Fat. 30 p. 200, 29; Just.) πάντα Hm 4, 3, 4.—Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

In case you are having difficulty understanding this, what it says is that when the object of the foreknowing is a "thing" ("τι"), then it means "to know before".

But when the object of the foreknowing is a PERSON ("τινα", the meaning is "choose beforehand"

So since the object of God's foreknowing in Rom. 8 are PEOPLE, the meaning is "choose".

You are somewhat confused the discussion concerns what the passage is speaking of and it is not saving faith.

I see....

So you deny that faith saves.
Got it.

Rom. 12:1–5 —ESV
“¶ I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.¶ For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.”

He is speaking of those in the church

and faith for service

Where does it say "faith for service"?

Funny how you get to add words to the Bible, but you chastise me for it.
Double standards much?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You seem to be ASSUMING that since she worshipped God, that means she was regenerated.
Care to PROVE that assumption?
Sorry that was not my assumption

My point was if you claim opening her heart was regeneration you are left with needing an explaination of how a supposedly total inabled person was a worshipper of God






I could ask the same question of you.
You quoted John 6:45.
I love that verse, and understand it very well.
But you seem to interpret it differently.

The only problem is that you refuse to actually EXPLAIN how you interpret it.
So when you refuse to do that, no "discussion" is possible.

Utter nonsense the point was to explain how God draws It is not some irresistible regenerating force which turns a hater of God to a believer

So what part of that don't you understand?
You seem to be ASSUMING that it contradicts Calvinism in some way.
But if you don't explain HOW you think it does, then we can't correct your misinterpretation.

Not at all. The point is does nothing to support any of the five point of Calvinismt,
Is this supposed to be a joke?

I don't know you are the one who asked me to execute the verse
So now you're denying John 6:44, and you're citing 12:32 as evidence that you reject 6:44?
That seems ill-advised, if you don't mind my saying so.

Your understanding is rather poor

John 6:44 applies to the period of time Christ came down to the earth to do the Fathers will

After the cross

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

so if you are going to speak of drawing today you must do it based on John 12:32


From BDAG:

προγινώσκω (Eur., X., Pla. et al.; BGU 1141, 39 [14 BC]; Wsd) 2 aor. προέγνων, ptc. προγνούς. Pass.: aor. 3 sg. προεγνώσθη Wsd 18:6; pf. ptc. προεγνωσμένος; plpf. 3 sg. προέγνωστο (Just., D. 70, 5)
1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth. (Philo, Somn. 1, 2; Jos., Vi. 106; Tat. 8, 4) affliction Hs 7:5. Abs. (Jos., Ant. 2, 86) προγινώσκοντες since you know this (i.e. what the context makes clear) in advance 2 Pt 3:17. Of God (Alex. Aphr., An. p. 1, 7 Br. τὰ μέλλοντα, Fat. 30 p. 200, 29; Just.) πάντα Hm 4, 3, 4.—Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

In case you are having difficulty understanding this, what it says is that when the object of the foreknowing is a "thing" ("τι"), then it means "to know before".

Sorry no

It says nothing about a thing

And scripture supports my view

Rom. 11:2 —ESV
“God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?”
But when the object of the foreknowing is a PERSON ("τινα", the meaning is "choose beforehand"

So since the object of God's foreknowing in Rom. 8 are PEOPLE, the meaning is "choose".

Wrong see above

also

Acts 26:5 —KJV
“Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.”


I see....

So you deny that faith saves.
Got it.

No you do not got it

as I never stated any such thing
Where does it say "faith for service"?

Funny how you get to add words to the Bible, but you chastise me for it.
Double standards much?

edit

Context Theo context

Rom. 12:1–5 —ESV
“¶ I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.¶ For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function
,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.”

He is speaking of those in the church

and faith for service

Rom. 12:4–8 —ESV
“For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”


that's service
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Hi @TomFL

The Pharisees worshipped God but rejected Christ and the gospel.

Romans 11


Ephesians 1



Yes, the ones God granted faith to. If you believed the gospel on your own volition, you'd have something to boast. Even Lydia can't boast any merit in her salvation.

Ephesians 2


John 6

Hello and welcome

And ?

If total inability is true how does anyone become a worshipper of God short of regeneration

If the Calvinist assumes the opening of Lydia's heart speaks of regeneration how did she being unregenerate and addled with a total inability to respond to God in a positive manner become a worshipper of God
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry that was not my assumption

My point was if you claim opening her heart was regeneration you are left with needing an explaination of how a supposedly total inabled person was a worshipper of God

Since you still haven't demonstrated that the Scripture contradicts Calvinism, there is nothing for me to have to "explain".

Utter nonsense the point was to explain how God draws It is not some irresistible regenerating force which turns a hater of God to a believer

Simply denying it doesn't make it be not so.

Not at all. The point is does nothing to support any of the five point of Calvinismt,

Prove it.


I don't know you are the one who asked me to execute the verse

It was "exegete".
And you still haven't done so.


Your understanding is rather poor

John 6:44 applies to the period of time Christ came down to the earth to do the Fathers will

After the cross

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

so if you are going to speak of drawing today you must do it based on John 12:32

I interpret it differently than you do.
You haven't proven that it means "every single individual".
Therefore, you fail.
Have a nice day! :)

Sorry no

It says nothing about a thing

Actually, it does.

1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.

See where it says "someth[ing]"?
See where it says "ti" in the Greek?

In contrast, when the object is a person:

2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2 (EWeber, D. Problem der Heilsgesch. nach Ro 9–11,

See where it says, "someone"?
See where it says, "tina" in the Greek?

And scripture supports my view

Rom. 11:2 —ESV
“God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?”

Not according to BDAG (see above).
You don't read too well

Context Theo context

Rom. 12:1–5 —ESV
“¶ I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.¶ For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function
,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.”

He is speaking of those in the church

and faith for service

NOWHERE does it say "faith for service".

If it did, you'd be able to highlight those three words, "faith for service".
Instead, you highlighted an ENTIRE PARAGRAPH, nowhere saying "faith for service".

Rom. 12:4–8 —ESV
“For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”


that's service

So you get to REDEFINE what scripture means?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Since you still haven't demonstrated that the Scripture contradicts Calvinism, there is nothing for me to have to "explain".

You are somewhat confused

My point is the verses originally presented do not prove Calvinism

I have done my part

If you want to disprove what I claimed above you need to actually address the argument and stop playing you have not disproved Calvinism game


Simply denying it doesn't make it be not so.

Yet another argument you will not address

It was shown that if you want to talk about drawing today you need to address

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
'
as Christ has been lifted up and we are living after the cross

Prove it.


You claimed I interpret it wrongly

You need to prove that

scripture supports my view

Rom. 11:2 —ESV
“God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?”

Elijah was someone God knew before

Acts 26:5 —KJV
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.”

and this is rather plain and obvious

and this is still service

Rom. 12:1–8 —KJV
Ҧ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.”

The conjunction for links

according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith

with what follows

and what follows is service, ministry gifts etc
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are somewhat confused

Nope. That would be you.
Please lose the personal attacks.

My point is the verses originally presented do not prove Calvinism

And you would be wrong.

I have done my part

Great!
If you truly believe that, then there is no reason for you to respond further.

If you want to disprove what I claimed above you need to actually address the argument and stop playing you have not disproved Calvinism game

Since you haven't demonstrated anything (you simply made empty claims), there is nothing for me to have to "disprove".

Yet another argument you will not address

It was shown that if you want to talk about drawing today you need to address

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
'
as Christ has been lifted up and we are living after the cross

Why do I need to "address" it?
Jesus commands me not to, in this particular instance (Matt. 7:6).

You haven't demonstrated that John 12:32, which means there is nothing for me too "address".

You claimed I interpret it wrongly

No, I suggested that you MIGHT have interpreted it wrongly.
Please cease misrepresenting me.

I personally don't believe you are understanding it correctly.
You apparently believe you are understanding it correctly.
Frankly, I don't really care about your opinion.

If you want to try to "disprove" Calvinism, you have to do better than simply quoting verses that Calvinists already believe.

You need to prove that

Nope, I don't.
I don't have to do something when YOU refuse to prove it is "against" Calvinism in the first place.

scripture supports my view

No, it doesn't, actually.

PROVE "scripture supports [your] view."
If you refuse to, there is nothing for me to have to "address".

Rom. 11:2 —ESV
“God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?”

Elijah was someone God knew before

Once again, BDAG shows that when the object of "foreknowing" is a person, that meaning is "CHOOSE in advance".
 

TomFL

Well-known member
TomFL said:
You are somewhat confused
Nope. That would be you.
Please lose the personal attacks.


That is not a personal attack
TomFL said:
My point is the verses originally presented do not prove Calvinism
And you would be wrong.

And you provide no proof of that nor do you address what I argued

This is quite typical
TomFL said:
I have done my part
Great!
If you truly believe that, then there is no reason for you to respond further.
I determine what and when I want to respond

and as long as you are replying I will respond


TomFL said:
If you want to disprove what I claimed above you need to actually address the argument and stop playing you have not disproved Calvinism game
Since you haven't demonstrated anything (you simply made empty claims), there is nothing for me to have to "disprove".

Denial

and a refusqal to deal with anything stated

again a typical response from you


TomFL said:
Yet another argument you will not address

It was shown that if you want to talk about drawing today you need to address

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
'
as Christ has been lifted up and we are living after the cross
Why do I need to "address" it?
Jesus commands me not to, in this particular instance (Matt. 7:6).

Jesus commanded no such thing

and your stealth insults are noted
You haven't demonstrated that John 12:32, which means there is nothing for me too "address".

TomFL said:
You claimed I interpret it wrongly
No, I suggested that you MIGHT have interpreted it wrongly.
Please cease misrepresenting me.

Again you provide no proof of it


I personally don't believe you are understanding it correctly.
You apparently believe you are understanding it correctly.
Frankly, I don't really care about your opinion.

Nor I you
If you want to try to "disprove" Calvinism, you have to do better than simply quoting verses that Calvinists already believe.

TomFL said:
You need to prove that
Nope, I don't.
I don't have to do something when YOU refuse to prove it is "against" Calvinism in the first place.

Again you miss the point

My argument was the verses originally quoted do not prove Calvinism

and I gave reasons

You do not address most of them


TomFL said:
scripture supports my view
No, it doesn't, actually.

PROVE "scripture supports [your] view."
If you refuse to, there is nothing for me to have to "address".

I did

and you ignored it

Acts 26:5 —KJV
“Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.”

Hello


TomFL said:
Rom. 11:2 —ESV
“God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?”

Elijah was someone God knew before
Once again, BDAG shows that when the object of "foreknowing" is a person, that meaning is "CHOOSE in advance".

Oh so you imagine BDAD a greater authority than the word of God

Why did you omit the other verse I quoted

Note Theo omit it again

Acts 26:5 —KJV
“Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.”
 

TomFL

Well-known member
From BDAG:

προγινώσκω (Eur., X., Pla. et al.; BGU 1141, 39 [14 BC]; Wsd) 2 aor. προέγνων, ptc. προγνούς. Pass.: aor. 3 sg. προεγνώσθη Wsd 18:6; pf. ptc. προεγνωσμένος; plpf. 3 sg. προέγνωστο (Just., D. 70, 5)
1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth. (Philo, Somn. 1, 2; Jos., Vi. 106; Tat. 8, 4) affliction Hs 7:5. Abs. (Jos., Ant. 2, 86) προγινώσκοντες since you know this (i.e. what the context makes clear) in advance 2 Pt 3:17. Of God (Alex. Aphr., An. p. 1, 7 Br. τὰ μέλλοντα, Fat. 30 p. 200, 29; Just.) πάντα Hm 4, 3, 4.—Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

In case you are having difficulty understanding this, what it says is that when the object of the foreknowing is a "thing" ("τι"), then it means "to know before".

But when the object of the foreknowing is a PERSON ("τινα", the meaning is "choose beforehand"

So since the object of God's foreknowing in Rom. 8 are PEOPLE, the meaning is "choose".
First

Ginosko the root does not mean choose

Second

Everything in the context

Speaks to those God knew before - those formerly known

Rom. 8:28–30 —KJV
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

They have been glorified already

These are men in the past

Acts 26:5 —KJV
“Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.”

Paul was known from the beginning - in the past

BAGD notes

Pt 1:20.—Know from time past (Jos., Bell. 6, 8)προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5. M-M.

1 Pet. 1:20 —ESV
“He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you”

Acts 26:5 —KJV
“Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.”

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 703.

Rom. 11:2–4 —KJV
“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.”

again people who God knew in the past - In Elias day

The Jewish people with whom God had a relationship before are not fully cast away.

Only in the critical texts does BAGD translate choose which once again is not a meaning of ginosko not even in bagd
 
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