Sam Shamoun Vs Matt Slick: Is Limited Atonement Biblical?

Septextura

Well-known member
If your theology is correct, these were all hypocrites, like the Pharisees, no difference. That is not the scripture is saying.

Those that have God's countenance, His Holy Spirit, are made righteous by God. You believe man can be righteous without God?

Enjoy.

Psalm 51
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Read carefully.
I have reserved to myself seven thousand men
It doesn't say I found approximately 7,000 men that remained loyal.
You didn't quote it in full. Allow me to give you the full quote:
I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. (Rom. 11:4)
They were chosen precisely because they had not bowed the knee to Baal, not the other way.
 

Septextura

Well-known member
You didn't quote it in full. Allow me to give you the full quote:

They were chosen precisely because they had not bowed the knee to Baal, not the other way.

You ignore the active language that matches the context. God creates a remnant. He doesn't get lucky someone remained.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Those that have God's countenance, His Holy Spirit, are made righteous by God. You believe man can be righteous without God?
It depends on what you mean by "without God". If you mean that God assists men to be righteous by his grace when they choose to be so, because of a genuine desire to please God, the answer is yes; but if you mean that God unconditionally forces them, obliges them, converts them, or "regenerates" them, without their own will and desire having anything to do with it, or playing any role in it, the answer is definitely no!
Enjoy.

Psalm 51
Psalms are poetry, and it is easy to misread it to suite your own way.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You ignore the active language that matches the context. God creates a remnant. He doesn't get lucky someone remained.

Romans 11:7
According to your theology, it is either luck or predestination. According to the Bible, it is neither, "Choose ye this day ..." (Josh. 24:15)
 

Septextura

Well-known member
It depends on what you mean by "without God". If you mean that God assists men to be righteous by his grace when they choose to be so, because of a genuine desire to please God, the answer is yes; but if you mean that God unconditionally forces them, obliges them, converts them, or "regenerates" them, without their own will and desire having anything to do with it, or playing any role in it, the answer is definitely no!

Psalms are poetry, and it is easy to misread it to suite your own way.

Psalms are God breathe no less than any other book in the Bible.

John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Christ quotes Psalm 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

I'm sure you know when Christ quoted Psalm 22:1.
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
@TomFL

Don't get stuck on the unbelieving Jews. You skipped the part where the whole world is blinded to the gospel unless God reveals it.

2 Corinthians 4


P.S. I misquoted the chapter in my previous comment, it's 4 not 2.
PS

2 Cor. 4:1–4 —KJV
Ҧ Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

You will note Paul states if our gospel is hid

It does not say it was hid from all

It was hid from those who were blinded by Satan and they believed not

Yet obviously some believed and were saved

Acts 2:22–41 —KJV
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”

The idea God sovereignly regenerated them causing them to believe is not found in the passage

It can only be assumed based upon a particular theology
 

civic

Well-known member
According to your theology, it is either luck or predestination. According to the Bible, it is neither, "Choose ye this day ..." (Josh. 24:15)
how can a slave choose not to be a slave ?

are not they imprisoned ?

do they not have a slave owner ?

are they not in chains ?

what is bondage ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Who chose 7,000 to remain instead of 0?
God but On what basis

Not on an arbitrary unconditional election

Rom. 11:4–5 —KJV
“But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Psalms are God breathe no less than any other book in the Bible.

John 13:18

Christ quotes Psalm 41:9

I'm sure you know when Christ quoted Psalm 22:1.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with quoting from the Psalms; I said it is easy to put the wrong spin on it, because of the poetic nature of the language.
 

civic

Well-known member
I didn't say there was anything wrong with quoting from the Psalms; I said it is easy to put the wrong spin on it, because of the poetic nature of the language.
The New interprets the Old as we see over and over again by Jesus and the Apostles. They tell us the meaning of the Old in numerous places in the N.T.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
how can a slave choose not to be a slave ?

are not they imprisoned ?

do they not have a slave owner ?

are they not in chains ?

what is bondage ?
Your theology is all twisted. Nothing else can be done until it is ditched.
 

civic

Well-known member
Your theology is all twisted. Nothing else can be done until it is ditched.
ad Hominem duly noted.

You have no clue about my theology and I notice you ran away from my questions. 15 reasons why your theology is wrong below !

)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is a sinner (Rom 5:12)
7)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
8)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
9)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
10)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
11)man is sinful in the womb (Psalm 51:5)
12)man is conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
13)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
14) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
15)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)

hope this helps !!!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
ad Hominem duly noted.

You have no clue about my theology and I notice you ran away from my questions. 15 reasons why your theology is wrong below !

)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is a sinner (Rom 5:12)
7)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
8)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
9)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
10)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
11)man is sinful in the womb (Psalm 51:5)
12)man is conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
13)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
14) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
15)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)

hope this helps !!!
16)man can choose (Josh. 24:15)

hope this helps.
 

civic

Well-known member
16)man can choose (Josh. 24:15)

hope this helps.
not without God enabling them- John 1:13 says not by human will/choice/decision but by God.

Jesus said you DID NOT choose Me but I CHOSE YOU.

No man can come to Him unless the Spirit draws/enables them. John 6:44

"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

I will take Jesus words over your theology.

next...........................
 
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civic

Well-known member
The planet and the water don't have a will. God didn't tell the planet and the water, "choose ye this day ..." But to man he did.
see here for the truth- choice is a human illusion.

 
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