Sam Shamoun Vs Matt Slick: Is Limited Atonement Biblical?

Septextura

Well-known member
They followed the advice of Josh. 24:15, "Choose ye this day ..."

This is an interesting passage indeed.

Joshua 24
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods;
17 For the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
18 And the Lord drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the Lord; for he is our God.
19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
20 If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the Lord.
22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

When God tells the incompetent wretched depraved human to do good, He lays a snare for the self-righteous. For He will have mercy and not sacrifice. A contrite spirit quenches the fiery anger of the Lord. God hates those who seek their own righteousness. "Thank you Lord for not making me like this publican. I tithe, I fast...."

John 2:17
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 66:2
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
When God tells the incompetent wretched depraved human to do good, He lays a snare for the self-righteous. For He will have mercy and not sacrifice. A contrite spirit quenches the fiery anger of the Lord. God hates those who seek their own righteousness.
Your argument simply doesn't make sense, not according to the Bible:

Psalms 34:

14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Micah 6:

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Matthew 5:

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Galatians 6:

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

1 Peter 3:

10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

James 4:

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


Are you seriously telling me that these are all traps and snares?!?!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sorry, but that's not how etymology works.



No, BDAG is BASED on Scriptural usage.
But you reject it when it doesn't suit your false teachings
Sorry but

Bagd does not state they were unconditionally chosen

That has to be read into the text

and chosen does not fit the context of

Acts 26:5 —KJV
“Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.”

In any case my claim the verse does not prove Calvinism has been verified

and you cannot prove differently
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Your argument simply doesn't make sense, not according to the Bible:

Psalms 34:

14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Micah 6:

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Matthew 5:

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Galatians 6:

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

1 Peter 3:

10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

James 4:

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


Are you seriously telling me that these are all traps and snares?!?!

God requires it, knowing that we will fail without Him. Can you be Holy without God? Can atheists with charitable donations please God and earn salvation?

1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
God requires it, knowing that we will fail without Him. Can you be Holy without God?

1 Peter 1:16
That is a red herring. God requires it, period. If God requires it, that means that he has provided us with the means necessary to enable us to do it. That is a given. He would be a hypocrite to act otherwise. It also means that we have a choice in the matter, whether to do it or not (and judged accordingly).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
God requires it, period. If God requires it, that means that he has provided us with the means necessary to enable us to do it. That is a given.

Please explain how that necessarily follows.
It appears to be nothing but an unsubstantiated assumption on your part.

He would be a hypocrite to act otherwise.

How so?
Do you even understand what a "hypocrite" is?

If I tell you that the NBA requires you to be 6'6" to be on the team, and doesn't enable you to be that tall, how does that make the NBA a "hypocrite"?

It also means that we have a choice in the matter, whether to do it or not (and judged for not doing it).

How does it necessarily follow that "we have a choice in the matter?
Do you have a "choice" on whether to be 6'6" or not?
It seems to be nothing but another unsubstantiated assumption on your part.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Please explain how that necessarily follows.
It appears to be nothing but an unsubstantiated assumption on your part.


How so?
Do you even understand what a "hypocrite" is?

If I tell you that the NBA requires you to be 6'6" to be on the team, and doesn't enable you to be that tall, how does that make the NBA a "hypocrite"?


How does it necessarily follow that "we have a choice in the matter?
Do you have a "choice" on whether to be 6'6" or not?
It seems to be nothing but another unsubstantiated assumption on your part.
Illogical comments; no further response required.
 

Septextura

Well-known member
I believe we outperformed those amateurs Sam Shamoun and Matt Slick in this thread gentlemen. Well done.
 

civic

Well-known member
not without God enabling them- John 1:13 says not by human will/choice/decision but by God.

Jesus said you DID NOT choose Me but I CHOSE YOU.

No man can come to Him unless the Spirit draws/enables them. John 6:44

"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

I will take Jesus words over your theology.

next...........................
@zerinus bump
 

zerinus

Well-known member
not without God enabling them- John 1:13 says not by human will/choice/decision but by God.
Misreading the text.
Jesus said you DID NOT choose Me but I CHOSE YOU.
He was addressing those whom he had specifically chosen and ordained to go and preach the gospel, not just to anybody.
No man can come to Him unless the Spirit draws/enables them. John 6:44
Context misunderstood or ignored.
"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45
Ditto.
I will take Jesus words over your theology.

next...........................
If you did, you wouldn't be a Calvinist.
 

civic

Well-known member
Misreading the text.

He was addressing those whom he had specifically chosen and ordained to go and preach the gospel, not just to anybody.

Context misunderstood or ignored.

Ditto.

If you did, you wouldn't be a Calvinist.
if you did you wouldn't be in a cult.
 

civic

Well-known member
You believe in an apostate religion. It apostatized in the first century. Calvinism is one of the many manifestations or deviations of it.
I'm a Christian who believes is Jesus alone for my salvation. Nice try with your label. You cannot place me into your little box. I follow Jesus, not any man, church or denomination.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I'm a Christian who believes is Jesus alone for my salvation. Nice try with your label. You cannot place me into your little box. I follow Jesus, not any man, church or denomination.
If you did, you would not believe in the abominable heresy of Calvinism. You would know better.
 

civic

Well-known member
If you did, you would not believe in the abominable heresy of Calvinism. You would know better.
Salvation is of, by and through the Lord. You don't believe those scriptures declaring that truth ?

And likewise you would not follow a cultist like Joseph Smith the false prophet.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Salvation is of, by and through the Lord. You don't believe those scriptures declaring that truth ?
Salvation being through the Lord does not translate into the abominable heresy of Calvinism.
And likewise you would not follow a cultist like Joseph Smith the false prophet.
Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Your apostate religion is leading you astray.
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Speaking of damnable heresy:

Mormonism in a Nutshell

Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world, and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his homeworld. He brought his wife to this world, a woman he had married on the other world. She is essentially a goddess.

In his present god-state, he rules our world. He has a body of flesh and bones. Since god and his wife are both exalted persons, they each possess physical bodies. In their exalted states as deities, they produce spirit children that grow and mature in the spiritual realm. The first spirit born was Jesus. Afterwards, Lucifer was born along with the rest of us. So, Mormonism teaches that we all pre-existed in the spirit realm - having been produced from the union of god and his goddess wife. Therefore, we all existed in spirit form before coming down and entering the bodies of human babies that are being born on earth. During this ‘compression' into the infant state, the memories of our pre-existence is 'veiled.'

God the father, who is called Elohim, was concerned for the future salvation of the people on earth. In the heavenly realm, the Father had a plan for the salvation of the world. Jesus endorsed the Father's plan. Lucifer did not. Lucifer became jealous and rebelled. In his rebellion, he convinced a large portion of the spirits existing in heaven to side with him and oppose god. God, being more powerful than they, cursed these rebellious spirits to become demons. They can never be born in human bodies.

The remaining spirits sided with God. Since they chose the better way, when it comes time for them to live on earth, they have the privilege of being born in races and locations that are relative to their condition and choice made in the spirit realm.1

In the Mormon plan of salvation there needed to be a savior: Jesus. But Jesus was a spirit in heaven. For him to be born on earth, Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church, said that instead of letting any other man do it, God the Father did it with Mary. He said that the birth of our savior was as natural as the birth of our parents. Essentially, what this means is that Brigham Young taught that god the father came down and had relations with Mary, his spirit daughter, to produce the body of Jesus. Though many Mormons will not entertain such incestuous thoughts about God and Mary, this is what Brigham Young taught; and as far as we know, this has not been denied by the Mormon church.

Nevertheless, Jesus was born, got married, and had children. He died on the cross and paid for sins - but not on the cross only. According to Mormonism, the atonement of Christ was not only on the cross. It began in the Garden of Gethsemane before he went to the cross.

In Mormonism, men and women have the potential of becoming gods. President Lorenzo Snow said, "As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become." In order to reach this exalted state of godhood, a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy. At this point, they receive a temple recommend, whereupon the Mormon is allowed to enter the sacred temples in order to go through a set of secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment. Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into the highest level of heaven.3 For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then he or she will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world, and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Speaking of damnable heresy:

Mormonism in a Nutshell

Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world, and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his homeworld. He brought his wife to this world, a woman he had married on the other world. She is essentially a goddess.

In his present god-state, he rules our world. He has a body of flesh and bones. Since god and his wife are both exalted persons, they each possess physical bodies. In their exalted states as deities, they produce spirit children that grow and mature in the spiritual realm. The first spirit born was Jesus. Afterwards, Lucifer was born along with the rest of us. So, Mormonism teaches that we all pre-existed in the spirit realm - having been produced from the union of god and his goddess wife. Therefore, we all existed in spirit form before coming down and entering the bodies of human babies that are being born on earth. During this ‘compression' into the infant state, the memories of our pre-existence is 'veiled.'

God the father, who is called Elohim, was concerned for the future salvation of the people on earth. In the heavenly realm, the Father had a plan for the salvation of the world. Jesus endorsed the Father's plan. Lucifer did not. Lucifer became jealous and rebelled. In his rebellion, he convinced a large portion of the spirits existing in heaven to side with him and oppose god. God, being more powerful than they, cursed these rebellious spirits to become demons. They can never be born in human bodies.

The remaining spirits sided with God. Since they chose the better way, when it comes time for them to live on earth, they have the privilege of being born in races and locations that are relative to their condition and choice made in the spirit realm.1

In the Mormon plan of salvation there needed to be a savior: Jesus. But Jesus was a spirit in heaven. For him to be born on earth, Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church, said that instead of letting any other man do it, God the Father did it with Mary. He said that the birth of our savior was as natural as the birth of our parents. Essentially, what this means is that Brigham Young taught that god the father came down and had relations with Mary, his spirit daughter, to produce the body of Jesus. Though many Mormons will not entertain such incestuous thoughts about God and Mary, this is what Brigham Young taught; and as far as we know, this has not been denied by the Mormon church.

Nevertheless, Jesus was born, got married, and had children. He died on the cross and paid for sins - but not on the cross only. According to Mormonism, the atonement of Christ was not only on the cross. It began in the Garden of Gethsemane before he went to the cross.

In Mormonism, men and women have the potential of becoming gods. President Lorenzo Snow said, "As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become." In order to reach this exalted state of godhood, a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy. At this point, they receive a temple recommend, whereupon the Mormon is allowed to enter the sacred temples in order to go through a set of secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment. Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into the highest level of heaven.3 For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then he or she will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world, and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.
LOL! None of that is canonized LDS scripture (or very little portion of it is); and much of it is contradicted by canonized scripture, in which case it is definitely false. Joseph Smith did teach at one time that God the Father was once a man who progressed to become God; but he never gave a proper revolutionary statement to the Church on the subject (like those in the Doctrine and Covenants for example); and therefore it is still not canonized LDS scripture---and therefore not an official doctrine of the Church. I personally believe that Joseph's original statement is true; but most of the rest of the material you posted are speculative material added to it subsequently by others. They are pure speculations, and they are not the official teaching position of the Church. Many of them are directly contradicted by LDS scripture, in which case they would be unquestionably regarded as false, as far as LDS theology is concerned. I don't know if it would be wise to get into a protracted discussion of this subject in this forum. If you are interested in getting into a detailed discussion, it might be wiser to take it to the Mormonism forum. But I am not fussy. If the forum admin have no obligations, I am happy to continue the discussion of it here if you like.
 
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