Satan and Hell

[puddleglum]

There is a popular idea that Satan is the ruler of Hell and tortures those who are condemned to go there. In his poem Paradise Lost John Milton has him say that it is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. There is nothing in the Bible that supports this belief.

Here is what the Bible says about Satan and his relationship with Hell.

The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 ESV

Rather than torturing others he will suffer the most intense torture that is possible. Hell will be more bearable for the other inhabitants than for him. In fact Hell was made for him and his angels.

 

[The Pixie]

There is a popular idea that Satan is the ruler of Hell and tortures those who are condemned to go there. In his poem Paradise Lost John Milton has him say that it is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. There is nothing in the Bible that supports this belief.

Here is what the Bible says about Satan and his relationship with Hell.

The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 ESV

Rather than torturing others he will suffer the most intense torture that is possible. Hell will be more bearable for the other inhabitants than for him. In fact Hell was made for him and his angels.

I think some Christians like to make out that it is not God torturing people in hell because it is Satan doing his dirty work. However, that then implies God is letting Satan have a good time. What you say here makes far more sense.

 

[Eightcrackers]

There is a popular idea that Satan is the ruler of Hell and tortures those who are condemned to go there. In his poem Paradise Lost John Milton has him say that it is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. There is nothing in the Bible that supports this belief.

Here is what the Bible says about Satan and his relationship with Hell.

The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 ESV

Rather than torturing others he will suffer the most intense torture that is possible. Hell will be more bearable for the other inhabitants than for him. In fact Hell was made for him and his angels.

Then why do humans end up there?

This was either

a) design, or
b) an oversight.

The designer is then either

a) malevolent, or
b) incompetent.

 

[Eightcrackers]

I think some Christians like to make out that it is not God torturing people in hell because it is Satan doing his dirty work. However, that then implies God is letting Satan have a good time. What you say here makes far more sense.

The ten - ten - people that Satan was recorded as having killed in the Bible were with Yahweh's permission, let's not forget.

 

[The Pixie]

The ten - ten - people that Satan was recorded as having killed in the Bible were with Yahweh's permission, let's not forget.

God does seem to like using Satan to do his dirty work.

 

[Temujin]

God does seem to like using Satan to do his dirty work.

Killing people for God is not why Satan was sent to hell. Allegedly. It was refusing to carry on doing God's dirty work as you put it, that earned that fate. The film "The Godfather" was perhaps better named than we realised.

 

[Furion]

There is a popular idea that Satan is the ruler of Hell and tortures those who are condemned to go there. In his poem Paradise Lost John Milton has him say that it is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. There is nothing in the Bible that supports this belief.

Here is what the Bible says about Satan and his relationship with Hell.

The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 ESV

Rather than torturing others he will suffer the most intense torture that is possible. Hell will be more bearable for the other inhabitants than for him. In fact Hell was made for him and his angels.

Succinct and to the point. Nice.

 

[Torin]

According to Dante, Satan is at the very bottom of Hell, encased in ice up to the waist, chewing on Judas, Cassius, and Brutus for all eternity.

 

[Caroljeen]

Then why do humans end up there?

Because of sin.

There is a cosmic invisible war going on for the souls of men between God and Satan (the god of this world). When humans sin, for the most part, they are being influenced by the devils, just like Eve in the garden of Eden. The devil is called the Tempter. As humans continue in sin, they become part of Satan's dark kingdom. A kingdom he rules with deceit and lies.

The apostle, John said "Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 1John 3:8 and 1 John 5:19 We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.

C.S. Lewis wrote the Screwtape letters, a fictional story of an elder demon giving advice to a younger demon how to tempt his human.

The ten - ten - people that Satan was recorded as having killed in the Bible were with Yahweh's permission, let's not forget.

Are you talking about Job's family?

 

[Komodo]

According to Dante, Satan is at the very bottom of Hell, encased in ice up to the waist, chewing on Judas, Cassius, and Brutus for all eternity.

It's quite a startling picture, since it seems to imply that the betrayal of Julius Caesar was comparable in its evil to the betrayal of Christ. It's a sign of how much reverence there was in Dante's time for the Roman Empire as God's chosen instrument.

 

[American Gothic]

It's quite a startling picture, since it seems to imply that the betrayal of Julius Caesar was comparable in its evil to the betrayal of Christ. It's a sign of how much reverence there was in Dante's time for the Roman Empire as God's chosen instrument.

I think it would be Satan's instrument (although God surely uses that in His plans)
Satan only has the dominion on Earth that humans give over to him to have and use (and God allows)
the dominion here is supposed to belong to Mankind

Roman and other world empires are but counterfeits of God's created empire
Jupiter in the Roman pantheon was probably Satan himself (as well as Zeus, maybe Osirus, etc. before)

people will be cast into Lake of Fire because they followed Satan, the author of Rebellion
and apparently in God's view that is where all Rebels truly deserve to go

 

[Komodo]

I think it would be Satan's instrument (although God surely uses that in His plans) [. . . .] Roman and other world empires are but counterfeits of God's created empire.

This was not the thinking in Dante's time, however.

 

[American Gothic]

This was not the thinking in Dante's time, however.

Rome, and Catholicism after, think a lot of Themselves it seems
any dominionist empire power on Earth does really
since Nimrod with the first one

edit-
actually, Nimrod's wasn't the first
there was the fallen sons of God/Nephilim stuff before the Flood
which Canaan and Nimrod wanted to replicate

 

[American Gothic]

"Hell" and Lake of Fire would be distinct from each other
as the former is possibly within the Earth somehow
and has different aspects to it
like there are different "heavens" or levels to or whatever

the LOF would still exist even with a New heavens and Earth
and the previous destroyed

 

[Eightcrackers]

Because of sin.

Not what I meant.

If humans were never intended to end up there, how is it possible that they do?
If I design a rat poison that's not supposed to kill humans, but it kills them anyway, aren't I an incompetent chemist?

There is a cosmic invisible war going on for the souls of men between God and Satan (the god of this world).

Then Yahweh should just kill Satan.
If the Allies had had a big red button labelled "Press Here to Win" in 1940, and not pressed it, they'd have been idiots.

Or, better yet, he should have not created Satan in the first place.

Besides, the idea of an omnipotent being in a war is prima facie absurd...

Are you talking about Job's family?

Of course.
The story of Job is one of the most offensive in the Bible, IMO.

 

[Caroljeen]

Not what I meant.

If humans were never intended to end up there, how is it possible that they do?

True, God made everything good and his original intent was for humans to prosper on the earth. Even now he is working toward a restoration or the world. My personal opinion is that because of Satan and 1/3 of the angels that followed him rebelled against God, he devised a test to see if man would do the same. He set the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden and commanded Adam not to eat from it or he would die. Adam could eat from any tree of the garden except for that one. They could have eaten the fruit of the tree of life from which they could have lived forever. Exodus 2: 9, 16

Adam and Eve failed miserably and doomed us all to live in a fallen world of which Satan has a large "say so" in what happens. The choice they made in the garden of Eden made it possible that the souls of men could end up in hell. It brought sin into the world and with it death, both spiritual and physical.

If I design a rat poison that's not supposed to kill humans, but it kills them anyway, aren't I an incompetent chemist?

of course.

Then Yahweh should just kill Satan.

I'm not sure that angels can be killed. They are spirit beings. They aren't composed of a material substance that can die.

If the Allies had had a big red button labelled "Press Here to Win" in 1940, and not pressed it, they'd have been idiots.

I don't know what you point you are trying to make here.

Or, better yet, he should have not created Satan in the first place.

I don't believe that God knew for sure that Satan would rebel but that God knew there was always that possibility since he created us and the angels with a free will to choose and to make moral decisions. God must have wanted to create beings that he could interact with and love dearly and they could freely return their love back to him. It was a risk that God was willing to take.

Besides, the idea of an omnipotent being in a war is prima facie absurd...

God has greater overarching plan with an end he is guiding the world towards. I don't claim to even come close to understanding it all. I get your point. I just think there is more factors involved into what he is letting things play out the way they are.

Of course.
The story of Job is one of the most offensive in the Bible, IMO.

Do you find God offensive or Satan?

 

[BMS]

Great post Caroljeen

 

[Eightcrackers]

My personal opinion is that because of Satan and 1/3 of the angels that followed him rebelled against God, he devised a test to see if man would do the same.

He knew in advance that they would.
That would be like my "testing" my four-year-old daughter to see if she can lift a Lincoln Continental over her head.

I'm not sure that angels can be killed. They are spirit beings. They aren't composed of a material substance that can die.

Destroyed, then - whatever term applies that amounts to "made not to exist any more".
(Or, better yet, don't create in the first place beings that you know will rebel and wreck your future relationship with humans.)

I don't know what you point you are trying to make here.

Prolonging in a war that you can win in an instant - with literally no effort - is idiotic.

I don't believe that God knew for sure that Satan would rebel

Then he is not all-knowing, is he?

It was a risk that God was willing to take.

How is it a risk for him?
We are the ones that end up in hell if it goes wrong.

Do you find God offensive or Satan?

I find the god of the Bible to be somewhat offensive, certainly.

I have yet to have a Christian explain to me why I should find Satan offensive, given that the only crime they can point to is opposing Yahweh.

 

[Caroljeen]

He knew in advance that they would.

I'm saying that he may not have known for sure just like he didn't know for sure that Abraham would obey him until Abraham actually started to offer up Isaac.

He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” Gen 22:12

That would be like my "testing" my four-year-old daughter to see if she can lift a Lincoln Continental over her head.

Only if God truly knew with certainty that Adam and Eve would definitely fail. He even prepared a contingency plan in the event that they did disobey him. He would restore man into a right relationship with himself by becoming like us and dying in our place for our sins.

Destroyed, then - whatever term applies that amounts to "made not to exist any more".
(Or, better yet, don't create in the first place beings that you know will rebel and wreck your future relationship with humans.)

It's risk God took in providing created rational beings with a free with to chose this or that, good or evil. He could have made humans like robots who only did his will and desire all of the time. What kind of relationship is that?
I'm saying God didn't know for sure. It was only one possibility that they would disobey. The other possibility was that they wouldn't disobey.

Prolonging in a war that you can win in an instant - with literally no effort - is idiotic.

He is not prolonging it indefinitely. The end will come and we all will be judged by him.

Here is a reason below for his "prolonging". He likely has more that I simply am not aware of.

2 Peter 3:7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless. 8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

Then he is not all-knowing, is he?

He is all-knowing. Some things he definitely has predetermined but for the most part He knows everything as possibilities. It's called Open theism. Greg Boyd is my favorite teacher on this subject. I still have some reservations about this doctrine but more and more I'm see the reality of in the Bible. The story of Abraham and Isaac is just one example of it.

How is it a risk for him?

The risk for God is rejection by his own creation.

We are the ones that end up in hell if it goes wrong.

God sends us there reluctantly with a heavy heart. He keeps reaching out to us to turn from our wicked ways. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

I find the god of the Bible to be somewhat offensive, certainly.

Concerning Old Testament violence, I don't have all the answers or even good answers. I know God from Jesus Christ and sometimes the God in the OT doesn't look a lot like Jesus yet it is the very same God. I don't know how to explain this disconnect I see at times.

I can point you to an author and preacher who seems to have an answer to this subject. His name is Greg Boyd. His book is called Cross Vision which deals with old testament violence. I haven't started reading my copy of the book yet. You can also listen to him teach on this subject online. https://whchurch.org/sermon/something-else-is-going-on/ or search his website https://reknew.org/blog/

I have yet to have a Christian explain to me why I should find Satan offensive, given that the only crime they can point to is opposing Yahweh.

Even in the book of Job you don't find Satan offensive?

 

[Eightcrackers]

He is not prolonging it indefinitely.

Why prolong it at all?

"Come on, Roosevelt - you've got the Big Red Button... you can end the war right now and save millions of lives!"
"I'm only letting the war go on for another five years - quit bugging me!"

He is all-knowing. Some things he definitely has predetermined but for the most part He knows everything as possibilities.

I know that if I roll a (fair) die, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 are possibilities.
How is this considered "all-knowing"?

The risk for God is rejection by his own creation.

How is this in any way detrimental to him, an all-powerful being?

God sends us there reluctantly with a heavy heart.

Why not just <insert word for causing us to no longer exist>?
Why must we continue to exist forever? We were brought into existence, after all...

Even in the book of Job you don't find Satan offensive?

Fair point, but let's remember why he did it: he was involved in a wager with Yahweh.

That's like a line leader and a shift manager betting on whether or not the line leader's abuse will cause a particular employee to resign, when said abuse requires the permission of the shift manager... who is the more reprehensible, in that situation?

What kind of shift manager even entertains that wager?