Saving faith in Lutheran theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie said:


And another poster:
Works come as a result of faith (faith isn't alone it has good fruits with it) explained many times...
no we don't add anything. That faith....that saves....is not alone and we don't add anything to it. Faith comes with or receives the holy spirit, grace and good fruits...(good fruits are the outward sign of this faith) or good works. It's not alone God and his will , Grace and good works before him are part of faith. But it is the saving faith....that brings them.

So no it doesn't mean we are saved in dead faith. Dead faith is the lack of good fruit . Just like a tree. No one is saved with dead faith. Nothing is added to it but what comes with it is received upon having faith. Therefore it is not alone, but it is itself the faith that saves.


Bottom line (Melancthon's dictum) It IS FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH that SAVES - is never alone. "Works" are NOT salvific. FAITH is.


Here is my question for Lutherans--are works integral to "saving faith"?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"This is the WORK OF God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."
So--is walking in the light--integral to belief in God?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Is the Love of God--integral to belief in God?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 

Nic

New member

Definition of integral--Merriam Webster

1a: essential to completeness : CONSTITUENTan integral part of the curriculum

So--are works essential to saving faith?
For me what is before the colon and after the colon are not synonymous.
Works, acts, deeds are not essential to be saved period to that point.
Do you not understand the expression and understanding of theology not unlike law is poignantly specific in these categories?
 

Nic

New member
The OP question is--are works integral to "saving faith"?

The answer is either yes or no.

Care to engage that point?
I already offered a more specific approach beyond your willing public expression of comprehension. We all know you are not an idiot but you oddly choose daftness when it suits you. When in fact when you go off script your intelligence shines, how very peculiar.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
For me what is before the colon and after the colon are not synonymous.
Morning, Nic--thanks for your reply.

You asked for a meaning--I offered Merriam Webster. Other dictionary definitions are similar.

Nic--the Lutherans have their own created meanings and definitions. In certain areas--those constructed meanings do not follow standard meanings, and certainly not the Biblical testimony.

Works, acts, deeds are not essential to be saved period to that point.
That is a claim the Lutherans follow--but not the Biblical text:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you explain that?

Do you not understand the expression and understanding of theology not unlike law is poignantly specific in these categories?
I understand the Lutherans make up their own rules.

The Biblical witness does not follow their rules.

Excluding all works from obtaining salvation is nothing less than salvation through dead faith--and that's my point, IE--Lutheran theology has one saved through dead faith:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
So--is walking in the light--integral to belief in God?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Is the Love of God--integral to belief in God?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Don't you remember that I also addressed these verses many times over the years? Why do you keep repeating yourself?

Do we walk IN the Light IN faith in Jesus or OUTSIDE of faith in Jesus? WHO is the Light, dberrie?

John 1

[*]"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


6 There [c]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 [d]He came [e]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 [f]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9There was the true Light [g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

Jesus is the TRUE Light. When we believe in Him for salvation, and trust in HIM ALONE to be saved, we then "walk in Jesus" ergo, "walk in the Light."

Paul says in Colossians 1:

3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have [d]for all the [e]saints; 5 because of the hope laid up for you in [f]heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, [g]the gospel 6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.

From this, we can ascertain that the Colossians bore fruit IN their faith in Jesus, AFTER they heard and believed the Gospel message that Epahras had given them. The fruit they were bearing is part of "walking in the Light". Paul continues:

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the [k]knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 SO that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, [l]to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and [m]increasing in the [n]knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to [o]His glorious might, [p]for the attaining of all steadfastness and [q]patience; joyously 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us [r]to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

According to Paul, we can see Who it is Who QUALIFIES us to share in the inheritance--eternal life--of the saints IN LIGHT. We are not qualified by our OWN efforts, since they will always be tainted by sin, but by what Jesus did for us on the cross--He exchanged our sins for His Righteousness. What an exchange!


Paul says in Colossians 2:

6 Therefore AS you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so [e]walk in Him,[/B] 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
AS we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO we walk in Him. The reception of Jesus Christ as our Savior THEN enables us to "walk in the Light." ON ACCOUNT OF OUR FAITH IN HIM we are able to walk in Him.

Those in works righteous cults do not understand this nor can they without the indwelling Holy Spirit. For such things must be spiritually discerned. As Paul also wrote "the message of the cross is foolishness for those who are perishing but for those of us who are being saved, "IT IS THE POWER OF GOD."

Being saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord apart from any works we do sounds like foolishness to them--too good to be true! But it isn't! For greater than God's justice is His MERCY! "He saved us NOT on account of works we have done in righteousness but on account of His MERCY." (Titus 3).


Now, will you deal with these verses or just ignore them as you are wont to do, thus demonstrating the Mormon debate tactics in my signature?
As for obeying the commandments, what are they?


1 John 3:19-23 19This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Will you deal with these verses, or also ignore them and just repeat yourself?

And HOW is the Law fulfilled in us?

Life in the Spirit

8 There is therefore NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


So, how does Paul say that the righteous requirements of the Law are fulfilled in us? Care to tell us? OR will you just ignore my question and repeat yourself, pretending I never answered you or dealt with your Bible verses?
 
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Nic

New member
Morning, Nic--thanks for your reply.

You asked for a meaning--I offered Merriam Webster. Other dictionary definitions are similar.

Nic--the Lutherans have their own created meanings and definitions. In certain areas--those constructed meanings do not follow standard meanings, and certainly not the Biblical testimony.


That is a claim the Lutherans follow--but not the Biblical text:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you explain that?


I understand the Lutherans make up their own rules.

The Biblical witness does not follow their rules.

Excluding all works from obtaining salvation is nothing less than salvation through dead faith--and that's my point, IE--Lutheran theology has one saved through dead faith:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
You're welcome Dberrie.
Theologians like lawyers are very specific in their use of terminology. I reserve and publicly acknowledge the theologian's theological practice of being as specific as necessary. If that doesn't work in your public wheelhouse then publicly you will appear to never understand even tbough you're brighter than that.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You're welcome Dberrie.
Theologians like lawyers are very specific in their use of terminology. I reserve and publicly acknowledge the theologian's theological practice of being as specific as necessary. If that doesn't work in your public wheelhouse then publicly you will appear to never understand even tbough you're brighter than that.

The dictionary definition works fine for me--and so does the Biblical testimony--which neither you, nor Lutherans here--have engaged, IMO.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So--is walking in the light--integral to faith in Jesus Christ?

Nic--the Biblical testimony is not friendly to Lutheran theology--and when the Lutherans find themselves facing the Biblical testimony--and find it just does not agree with their theology--we usually find ourselves traveling the road of "I already answered that", "out of context", "you don't keep the commandments", etc.

Lutherans don't usually engage the scriptures themselves--but follow some sort of diversion.

So--care to engage the above scripture itself--and relate to us how you fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Don't you remember that I also addressed these verses many times over the years? Why do you keep repeating yourself?
Here we go again.......

Do we walk IN the Light IN faith in Jesus or OUTSIDE of faith in Jesus?
In faith--all works of righteousness are integral to faith in Jesus Christ. Bonnie--that only connects faith and works as integral components to one another.

It also magnifies your onus of not only explaining how you collate Lutheran theology in verses connecting God's grace with walking in the light--but why Lutherans exclude any works from faith--seeing the scriptures label that kind of faith as dead faith.

WHO is the Light, dberrie?
And just how are you relating that to the point of the scriptures, where it connects walking in the light--with His Blood?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Bonnie--that question does not vindicate the contradiction between Lutheran theology--and the Biblical witness.

IOW--acknowledging Jesus is the Light--does nothing to negate the fact scriptures still connects WALKING in the light--with His grace, IE--
"the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

That defies Lutheran theology.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
The dictionary definition works fine for me--and so does the Biblical testimony--which neither you, nor Lutherans here--have engaged, IMO.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So--is walking in the light--integral to faith in Jesus Christ?

Nic--the Biblical testimony is not friendly to Lutheran theology--and when the Lutherans find themselves facing the Biblical testimony--and find it just does not agree with their theology--we usually find ourselves traveling the road of "I already answered that", "out of context", "you don't keep the commandments", etc.

Lutherans don't usually engage the scriptures themselves--but follow some sort of diversion.

So--care to engage the above scripture itself--and relate to us how you fit that into Lutheran theology?
Why do you pretend no one here has engaged you in these verses about walking in the light? When I did so VERY THOROUGHLY in my post no. 10? Do you enjoy fulfulling my Mormon tactics nos. 3-5 in my signature?
 
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Bonnie

Well-known member
Here is my question for Lutherans--are works integral to "saving faith"?
"This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE on Him Whom God has sent."
Is it God's work in Jesus Christ that saves us? Or OUR works? Who is the Savior, dberrie? Us--or Jesus Christ?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you pretend no one here has engaged you in these verses about walking in the light? When I did so VERY THOROUGHLY in my post no. 10? Do you enjoy fulfulling my Mormon tactics nos. 3-5 in my signature?
Here we go, folks. The ole "I already answered that" routine.

One more opportunity:

And just how are you relating that to the point of the scriptures, where it connects walking in the light--with His Blood?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Bonnie--that question does not vindicate the contradiction between Lutheran theology--and the Biblical witness.

IOW--acknowledging Jesus is the Light--does nothing to negate the fact scriptures still connects WALKING in the light--with His grace, IE--
"the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

That defies Lutheran theology.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE on Him Whom God has sent."
Are you claiming that precludes this condition?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Is the love of God necessary for salvation to occur?

Is it God's work in Jesus Christ that saves us?

Bonnie--God's work was for the whole human race--and the whole human race is not saved unto eternal life.

His work was a free gift to all men--and offered an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life.

The Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon one walking in the light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?

Or OUR works? Who is the Savior, dberrie? Us--or Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men, Bonnie. That won't make your point.

So--are works integral to "saving faith"?
 

Nic

New member
Dberry said: Lutherans don't usually engage the scriptures themselves--but follow some sort of diversion.
Nic Replies: No Dberry, you choose ignorance as a pretense. You're not that daft.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Dberry said: Lutherans don't usually engage the scriptures themselves--but follow some sort of diversion.
Nic Replies: No Dberry, you choose ignorance as a pretense. You're not that daft.
Morning, Nic:

You didn't engage the posted scriptures.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Dberry said: Lutherans don't usually engage the scriptures themselves--but follow some sort of diversion.
Nic Replies: No Dberry, you choose ignorance as a pretense. You're not that daft.
Nic--you asked a question about what I meant by "integral"--when I asked if works were integral to faith. I thought I would explain that in more detail.

In the English language--the terms we use usually have components which make it up, as integral components to that term. Here are some examples:

Term: House Integral components: roof, walls, foundation, ceilings, floors, etc.

Term: Car Integral components: wheels, engine, doors, transmission, seat, windows, etc.

Term: Faith Integral components: love of God and one another, repentance, baptism, walking in the light, keeping the commandments, helping the poor, following Christ, enduring to the end, etc.

I had a friend come in late for work one morning. I asked him what was the cause of his tardiness. He told me his car's transmission had gone out, but the transmission shop had picked his car up, and they were working on his car at that moment.

So--were they working on his car--or his transmission?
 
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