Saving faith in Lutheran theology

Nic

Active member
Nic--you asked a question about what I meant by "integral"--when I asked if works were integral to faith. I thought I would explain that in more detail.

In the English language--the terms we use usually have components which make it up, as integral components to that term. Here are some examples:

Term: House Integral components: roof, walls, foundation, ceilings, floors, etc.

Term: Car Integral components: wheels, engine, doors, transmission, seat, windows, etc.

Term: Faith Integral components: love of God and one another, repentance, baptism, walking in the light, keeping the commandments, helping the poor, following Christ, enduring to the end, etc.

I had a friend come in late for work one morning. I asked him what was the cause of his tardiness. He told me his car's transmission had gone out, but the transmission shop had picked his car up, and they were working on his car at that moment.

So--were they working on his car--or his transmission?
Works are integral to the life of every surviving conceived human being.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Morning, Nic--thanks for your reply.

You asked for a meaning--I offered Merriam Webster. Other dictionary definitions are similar.

Nic--the Lutherans have their own created meanings and definitions. In certain areas--those constructed meanings do not follow standard meanings, and certainly not the Biblical testimony.


That is a claim the Lutherans follow--but not the Biblical text:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you explain that?


I understand the Lutherans make up their own rules.

The Biblical witness does not follow their rules.

Excluding all works from obtaining salvation is nothing less than salvation through dead faith--and that's my point, IE--Lutheran theology has one saved through dead faith:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Where do Lutherans make up their own rules? When we go by the entire Biblical witness?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Here we go, folks. The ole "I already answered that" routine.

One more opportunity:

And just how are you relating that to the point of the scriptures, where it connects walking in the light--with His Blood?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Bonnie--that question does not vindicate the contradiction between Lutheran theology--and the Biblical witness.

IOW--acknowledging Jesus is the Light--does nothing to negate the fact scriptures still connects WALKING in the light--with His grace, IE--
"the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

That defies Lutheran theology.
Could it be because IT IS TRUE????? Do you think you are fooling anyone on here? Since I did so very thoroughly in post no. 10 on here? Which anyone with eyeballs can see is true? Why do you pretend no one has dealt with your "walking in the light" verses when I HAVE??? Do you enjoy demonstrating my Mormon debate tactics 3-5 in my signature? Did you not read the following in my post?

Colossians 2:

6 Therefore AS you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus the Lord, SO walk in Him, 7 HAVING BEEN firmly rooted and NOW being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Do you know what it the bolded parts mean? "AS YOU HAVE RECEIVED Christ Jesus the Lord, SO walk in Him"....What does this sentence mean, dberrie?
 
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Nic

Active member
Nic--you asked a question about what I meant by "integral"--when I asked if works were integral to faith. I thought I would explain that in more detail.

In the English language--the terms we use usually have components which make it up, as integral components to that term. Here are some examples:

Term: House Integral components: roof, walls, foundation, ceilings, floors, etc.

Term: Car Integral components: wheels, engine, doors, transmission, seat, windows, etc.

Term: Faith Integral components: love of God and one another, repentance, baptism, walking in the light, keeping the commandments, helping the poor, following Christ, enduring to the end, etc.

I had a friend come in late for work one morning. I asked him what was the cause of his tardiness. He told me his car's transmission had gone out, but the transmission shop had picked his car up, and they were working on his car at that moment.

So--were they working on his car--or his transmission?
Okay Dberry you wish to define integral, how about define faith because I am capable of seeing the difference of faith being in any way predicated by our deeds vs the deeds a person does before or after faith. I still stand by my answers as sufficient to the question.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do you know what it the bolded parts mean? "AS YOU HAVE RECEIVED Christ Jesus the Lord, SO walk in Him"....What does this sentence mean, dberrie?
For me--it means this:

1 John 1:7---King James Version

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So--how do we fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Okay Dberry you wish to define integral, how about define faith because I am capable of seeing the difference of faith being in any way predicated by our deeds....
So--are these examples of that claim?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Where do Lutherans make up their own rules? When we go by the entire Biblical witness?
Bonnie--Lutherans have very little in common with the Biblical witness:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Works are integral to the life of every surviving conceived human being.
In Lutheran theology--works are excluded in obtaining Life. It's a faith without works(dead faith, according to James) in obtaining salvation--as to Lutheran theology.

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
 

Nic

Active member
In Lutheran theology--works are excluded in obtaining Life. It's a faith without works(dead faith, according to James) in obtaining salvation--as to Lutheran theology.

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Do you now see the problem with using vague or ambiguous terminology?
That's why theologians are so very specific. 💡
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do you now see the problem with using vague or ambiguous terminology?
That's why theologians are so very specific. 💡
That's a very vague retort--and does not touch the first posted scripture.

Care to address some of those scriptures--and relate to us how you comport them to Lutheran theology?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15---King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 

Nic

Active member
That's a very vague retort--and does not touch the first posted scripture.

Care to address some of those scriptures--and relate to us how you comport them to Lutheran theology?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15---King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
You are engaging in obtuse rhetoric, no thank you. I have pencils to sharpen or gravel to pick out of my tires.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Paul says in Colossians 2:

AS we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO we walk in Him. The reception of Jesus Christ as our Savior THEN enables us to "walk in the Light." ON ACCOUNT OF OUR FAITH IN HIM we are able to walk in Him.
Bonnie--let's go ahead and settle that account. No one is arguing walking in the light is connected to our faith in Christ, and neither is that the impetus of 1John1:7. And I'm not understanding how you are relating your answer above--with explaining the testimony of the scriptures, witnessing if we walk in the light--we receive of His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That defies Lutheran theology.

Perhaps you could explain for us how your retort above--somehow addresses how the Biblical condition of walking in the Light, being connected to His Blood, is connected to faith--greases the scripture to fit Lutheran theology? It's a square peg in a round hole. It does not fit.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie--Lutherans have very little in common with the Biblical witness:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Do you not know that "fearing" means "believing in" God, so that IN FAITH we "work righteousness"? Not FOR faith? That we do what is right IN faith in God in Christ Jesus our Lord? Can we please God without faith in His Son?

Heb. 11:6

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Does Hebrews say it is HARD to please God without faith, or IMPOSSIBLE?

Remember what Eph. 2:10 says?

For we are GOD'S workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may WALK in them."

1. WHOSE workmanship are we?
2. WHO has prepared us in advance for doing good works?
3. IN WHOM do we do good works?
4. What does "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean?
5. WHO enables us to DO good works?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie--let's go ahead and settle that account. No one is arguing walking in the light is connected to our faith in Christ, and neither is that the impetus of 1John1:7. And I'm not understanding how you are relating your answer above--with explaining the testimony of the scriptures, witnessing if we walk in the light--we receive of His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That defies Lutheran theology.

Perhaps you could explain for us how your retort above--somehow addresses how the Biblical condition of walking in the Light, being connected to His Blood, is connected to faith--greases the scripture to fit Lutheran theology? It's a square peg in a round hole. It does not fit.
Why cannot you see what is under your very nose?

AS we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO we walk in Him. The reception of Jesus Christ as our Savior THEN enables us to "walk in the Light." ON ACCOUNT OF OUR FAITH IN HIM we are able to walk in Him.

Why did you ignore my question: Do you know what AS and SO mean here? What part of "on account of our FAITH in Him we are able to WALK IN HIM" don't you get? And when we have faith in Him, Jesus' blood covers us and we are declared clean and righteous in His sight--what part of that don't you understand?

Could it be you do NOT want to understand--because it would burn to ashes the works righteous beliefs indoctrinated in you by your false church?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You are engaging in obtuse rhetoric, no thank you. I have pencils to sharpen or gravel to pick out of my tires.
Apparently "cause and effect" is lost on some...

BECAUSE these nations fear God, they DO RIGHTEOUSNESS. The outcome of "fearing God" is that they do what is right in God's eyes.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do you not know that "fearing" means "believing in" God, so that IN FAITH we "work righteousness"?
The "work righteousness" is connected to being accepted by God:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

In Lutheran theology--one obtains eternal life to the exclusion of all works.

So--how do you collate Acts10: 34-35 with Lutheran theology?

Not FOR faith? That we do what is right IN faith in God in Christ Jesus our Lord? Can we please God without faith in His Son?
Obviously--one cannot please God without working righteousness--so that is only linking working righteousness as integral to faith in Jesus Christ.

How does that fit Lutheran theology?

Does Hebrews say it is HARD to please God without faith, or IMPOSSIBLE?

That only connects working righteousness as an integral component to faith.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why cannot you see what is under your very nose?

AS we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO we walk in Him. The reception of Jesus Christ as our Savior THEN enables us to "walk in the Light." ON ACCOUNT OF OUR FAITH IN HIM we are able to walk in Him.
And just how do you believe any of that somehow breaks the bond between walking in the light--and the Blood of Christ being applied to the remission of sins?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Bonnie--that defies Lutheran theology--regardless of what you believe enables one to walk in the light. If one believes faith enables us to walk in the light--the Blood of Christ unto the remission of sins is still conditional upon that walk.

My parents enabled me to achieve an education--that still did not preclude my personal application of efforts so it could happen. Nor would it have happened without those efforts.

So--please explain for us how you are using your point above to preclude the testimony which links walking in the light--as a condition to receiving His Blood unto the remission of sins? How?

That's where it violates Lutheran theology (linking walking in the light with His Blood)--and the point I am asking you to address.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
1. WHOSE workmanship are we?
2. WHO has prepared us in advance for doing good works?
3. IN WHOM do we do good works?
4. What does "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean?
5. WHO enables us to DO good works?
I'm going to ask you what link you are attempting to make in those points--and the testimony linking walking in the light--with His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you feel it contradicts the scripture above? (if you do) What is your reasoning for those points?(I think they are good questions--I just don't see what your point is--please explain that for us, because I want to focus in on the point where the scripture links walking in the light with His Blood--and how it fits Lutheran theology)
 
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