Saving faith in Lutheran theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You are engaging in obtuse rhetoric, no thank you. I have pencils to sharpen or gravel to pick out of my tires.
LOL!!! That's funny, Nic.

I suppose the fact that when I post scriptures which defy Lutheran theology--it becomes "obtuse rhetoric"--is not lost to all those viewing.

Care to address some of that "obtuse rhetoric"?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15---King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I'm going to ask you what link you are attempting to make in those points--and the testimony linking walking in the light--with His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you feel it contradicts the scripture above? (if you do) What is your reasoning for those points?(I think they are good questions--I just don't see what your point is--please explain that for us, because I want to focus in on the point where the scripture links walking in the light with His Blood--and how it fits Lutheran theology)
Why do you keep asking me to repeat myself? Can't you see THE LINK in the verse I quoted?

And what I told Nic here? "BECAUSE these nations fear God, they DO RIGHTEOUSNESS. The outcome of "fearing God" is that they do what is right in God's eyes."

Is education the same thing as eternal salvation?

Do you think the UNrighteous can produce righteousness? Do thorns produce figs? Do you not know HOW we can "do" righteousness? Didn't Jesus say that He is the vine and we are the branches, and that without Him, WE CAN DO NOTHING?

Colossians 2:

6 Therefore AS you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus the Lord, SO walk in Him, 7 HAVING BEEN firmly rooted and NOW being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you keep asking me to repeat myself? Can't you see THE LINK in the verse I quoted?

No. I see no link whatsoever. I have asked you to explain what link you see.

And what I told Nic here? "BECAUSE these nations fear God, they DO RIGHTEOUSNESS. The outcome of "fearing God" is that they do what is right in God's eyes."

O.K.

Bonnie--here is the Lutheran onus:

The verse you reference links "working righteousness"--- with being accepted with God:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Seeing Lutheran theology preaches one is accepted with God, in eternal life-- PRIOR to any works--and excluding all works---

How does one link the testimony of that scripture with Lutheran faith alone theology?


Do you think the UNrighteous can produce righteousness?

I believe the scriptures link working righteousness with being accepted of God--regardless of what one believes about the unrighteous producing righteousness.

How are you linking the two?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do thorns produce figs? Do you not know HOW we can "do" righteousness?
There are numerous ways one can do righteousness.

Here is a scriptural example:

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

In fact--it was the dividing point between the sheep and the goats.

Imagine that, Bonnie--something they did brought forth the grace of Christ unto His kingdom.

So--do you find a relationship of Mattew25:31-46--and to this?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Didn't Jesus say that He is the vine and we are the branches,

There is a link there to being "offspring"--and to this parallel:

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So--if the branches don't bring forth fruit--do they enter into His kingdom? Isn't that a connection between works and His kingdom, or--being accepted with Him?

and that without Him, WE CAN DO NOTHING?

How does that negate the connection between our works--and being accepted of Him? How are you connecting that point(which I agree with)--and this testimony?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No. I see no link whatsoever. I have asked you to explain what link you see.



O.K.

Bonnie--here is the Lutheran onus:

The verse you reference links "working righteousness"--- with being accepted with God:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Seeing Lutheran theology preaches one is accepted with God, in eternal life-- PRIOR to any works--and excluding all works---

How does one link the testimony of that scripture with Lutheran faith alone theology?




I believe the scriptures link working righteousness with being accepted of God--regardless of what one believes about the unrighteous producing righteousness.

How are you linking the two?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

"every nation that FEARS HIM"--that means believes in Him--"and works righteousness is accepted with Him."


Are the works done in righteousness done IN belief in God, or outside of belief in God? Which came first--believing in God or righteous works? And how can a work be righteous if done by someone who does NOT believe in God--which would not be acceptable to God? Have you forgotten that Hebrews says that "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD"?

"He SAVED US, NOT on account of works we have done IN RIGHTEOUSNESS but on account of His mercy." (Titus 3). Don't you ever remember that we have repeatedly said that good works we do as Christians we do BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET SAVED? Since Paul tells us that we are CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS for good works?

"We are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus FOR good words, which He prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

1. WHOSE workmanship are we?
2. IN WHOM are we created to DO good works?
3. WHO has prepared us to do them?
4. WHO enables us to DO (walk in) them?

When are you going to answer these simple questions? Or will you continue to run away from them?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

"every nation that FEARS HIM"--that means believes in Him--"and works righteousness is accepted with Him."

That only links belief and working righteousness together. Kinda like faith without works is dead, IMO.

Are the works done in righteousness done IN belief in God, or outside of belief in God? Which came first--believing in God or righteous works?

That seems like a which came first--the chicken or egg --question. I'm fine with either answer.

How are you relating that to the testimony linking working righteousness and being accepted with God--with Lutheran theology?

2 John 9---King James Version
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

And how can a work be righteous if done by someone who does NOT believe in God--which would not be acceptable to God? Have you forgotten that Hebrews says that "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD"?

Please do note Bonnie--I don't separate working righteousness and faith in Christ into two separate piles. In the Biblical text--they are integral to one another, as faith without works is dead.

And it doesn't explain how you collate how Lutheran theology fits the connection of working righteousness and being accepted of God.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"He SAVED US, NOT on account of works we have done IN RIGHTEOUSNESS but on account of His mercy." (Titus 3).

And--I don't find anything about being saved by faith there either. To be sure--neither our faith nor works can save us--as one is saved by God's grace. No one is arguing works saves anyone.

How does that negate the fact God gives His mercy to them which follow Him?

John 10:27-28---King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That has this order:

1) Sheep hear His voice
2) They follow Him
3) He gives them eternal life.

How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"We are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus FOR good words, which He prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

1. WHOSE workmanship are we?
2. IN WHOM are we created to DO good works?
3. WHO has prepared us to do them?
4. WHO enables us to DO (walk in) them?

When are you going to answer these simple questions? Or will you continue to run away from them?
The answers to those questions are contained in the posted scripture above.

How are you relating any of that--to my OP? To the testimony of the scriptures linking working righteousness and being accepted of God?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Again--how are you linking your questions above--with that testimony?

Bonnie--if you want to address your questions--either explain to us how you are relating your questions to this OP--or please start your own thread.

I consider it diversion, and I don't see anything in your questions which I disagree with--or would play into why Lutherans can't collate their testimony with the scriptures I have posted. Please start your own thread for that.

Meanwhile--please answer how Lutherans comport their theology with the above scripture.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
And--I don't find anything about being saved by faith there either. To be sure--neither our faith nor works can save us--as one is saved by God's grace. No one is arguing works saves anyone.

How does that negate the fact God gives His mercy to them which follow Him?

John 10:27-28---King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That has this order:

1) Sheep hear His voice
2) They follow Him
3) He gives them eternal life.

How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
"For it is by grace you are saved, THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD, and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast."

"Jesus said to her, 'Your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace.'" (Luke 7:50)

Do you see faith NOW?

And just because things in salvation are connected does not man they have the same function:

From Josiah, 3 boards ago:
Round and round you go....... obviously in spite of knowing you are just clinging to a wrong strawman.

You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, believed or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"For it is by grace you are saved, THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD, and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast."

That testifies we are saved by God's grace--and not of works--nor faith.

How does that negate God gives that grace to them which worketh righteousness?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Bonnie--Paul connected works and eternal life:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

How do you explain that?

I explain Paul's position as he not believing one is saved by faith nor works--but by God's grace. The marriage between works(faith) and grace is at the point that God gives His grace unto life to them which follow and obey Him:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


IOW--not of works(circumcision)--but keeping the commandments of God.
"Jesus said to her, 'Your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace.'" (Luke 7:50)

Do you see faith NOW?

I see faith in all of the verses:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So--if you are going to throw the "saved" verses around--how do you collate all of those verses to Lutheran theology--or, for that fact--to the Biblical text,as a whole--- except that all of those actions become integral to "faith"?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That testifies we are saved by God's grace--and not of works--nor faith.

How does that negate God gives that grace to them which worketh righteousness?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Bonnie--Paul connected works and eternal life:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

How do you explain that?

I explain Paul's position as he not believing one is saved by faith nor works--but by God's grace. The marriage between works(faith) and grace is at the point that God gives His grace unto life to them which follow and obey Him:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


IOW--not of works(circumcision)--but keeping the commandments of God.


I see faith in all of the verses:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So--if you are going to throw the "saved" verses around--how do you collate all of those verses to Lutheran theology--or, for that fact--to the Biblical text,as a whole--- except that all of those actions become integral to "faith"?
"For by grace you are saved THROUGH FAITH...and NOT by works..."

omans 4 New American Standard Bible 1995 (NASB1995)​

Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.


So we are not saved at all by faith? Then, aren't you making a liar out of Jesus when He told the sinful woman in Luke 7:50, "Your FAITH has SAVED you, go in peace"? Jesus lied? Do you not believe Jesus Christ? Whom should I believe--YOU? OR Jesus Christ Himself and what HE said?

Did Peter lie here:

1 Peter 1:

6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your FAITH the salvation of your souls.

WHAT is the OUTCOME of having faith? What does Peter say? And what does "believe" mean?

VERB

  1. accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
    "the superintendent believed Lancaster's story" ·

    synonyms:
    be convinced by · trust · have confidence in · consider honest·

And where does the Bible say we are saved by grace and NOT BY FAITH? I can show you verses that show we are NOT saved by works, but where is the verse that says that we are NOT saved by FAITH in Jesus Christ? Care to show us that verse or verses?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
"For by grace you are saved THROUGH FAITH...and NOT by works..."

So we are not saved at all by faith?
The scriptures testify one is saved by God's grace--through faith.

So--is that a faith without works--or a faith with works?

Then, aren't you making a liar out of Jesus when He told the sinful woman in Luke 7:50, "Your FAITH has SAVED you, go in peace"? Jesus lied? Do you not believe Jesus Christ? Whom should I believe--YOU? OR Jesus Christ Himself and what HE said?

Care to address that from the point of the "saved" verses?

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

How does one fit those verses into Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"For by grace you are saved THROUGH FAITH...and NOT by works..."
How does that negate God gives that grace to them which worketh righteousness?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Romans 4 New American Standard Bible 1995 (NASB1995)

Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Again--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes,

Bonnie--to vindicate your theology--you are going to have to show "faith" does not include things such as keeping the commandments--as an integral component to faith.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Did Peter lie here:
1 Peter 1:

6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your FAITH the salvation of your souls.

WHAT is the OUTCOME of having faith?

1 Peter 1:9---King James Version
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


Two questions here:

1) Don't the Lutherans teach one is given salvation at the beginning of faith?(saved through a faith without works)

2) Did Peter believe one is saved through a faith--without works?

1 Peter 1:17---King James Version
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
 

Bonnie

Super Member
How does that negate God gives that grace to them which worketh righteousness?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


Again--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes,

Bonnie--to vindicate your theology--you are going to have to show "faith" does not include things such as keeping the commandments--as an integral component to faith.
Why do you refuse to answer my simple questions? Especially when I have answered your questions time without number and dealt with all of your points and Bible verses?

Now, when are you going to give me the CORRECT answers to these questions?

1.In Luke 7:50, what did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED the woman? The exact word He used?
"Jesus said to her, 'Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace."

2.In Romans 4:5, WHAT did Paul actually say is credited to us as righteousness? THE EXACT WORD HE USED?
"...but to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is credited as righteousness."

When are you finally going to answer these questions CORRECTLY? Why are you so afraid to give me a correct, straight-forward answer, since neither question is an essay question?

So you think "not of works" ONLY refers to circumcision? Don't you know that is false? Don't you remember the context of Eph. 2:8-9? "....and NOT by works so no one may boast. For we are Gods' workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

Do you see Paul mentioning circumcision here?

And have you forgotten Titus 3? "He saved us, NOT ON ACCOUNT OF WORKS WE HAVE DONE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, but on account of His merch."

What are righteous works, dberrie?

Now, when are you going to answer my two questions correctly, and tell me what they actually say, instead of trying to go off on a rabbit trail?

You wrote that you saw faith in all of those verses--did you mean the ones below where you wrote that? What about in Luke 7:50 and Romans 4:5?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
The scriptures testify one is saved by God's grace--through faith.

So--is that a faith without works--or a faith with works?



Care to address that from the point of the "saved" verses?

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

How does one fit those verses into Lutheran theology?
Where is there a verse in the Bible that says we are NOT saved by faith in Jesus Christ?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Why w
I'm going to ask you what link you are attempting to make in those points--and the testimony linking walking in the light--with His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you feel it contradicts the scripture above? (if you do) What is your reasoning for those points?(I think they are good questions--I just don't see what your point is--please explain that for us, because I want to focus in on the point where the scripture links walking in the light with His Blood--and how it fits Lutheran theology)
Why won't you answer my simple questions about Eph. 2?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie--let's go ahead and settle that account. No one is arguing walking in the light is connected to our faith in Christ, and neither is that the impetus of 1John1:7. And I'm not understanding how you are relating your answer above--with explaining the testimony of the scriptures, witnessing if we walk in the light--we receive of His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That defies Lutheran theology.

Perhaps you could explain for us how your retort above--somehow addresses how the Biblical condition of walking in the Light, being connected to His Blood, is connected to faith--greases the scripture to fit Lutheran theology? It's a square peg in a round hole. It does not fit.
John 1

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There [c]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 [d]He came [e]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 [f]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9There was the true Light [g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

6 Therefore AS you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO walk in Him, 7 HAVING BEEN firmly rooted and NOW being built up in Him and established IN your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. (Colossians 2)
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you refuse to answer my simple questions? Especially when I have answered your questions time without number and dealt with all of your points and Bible verses?

Now, when are you going to give me the CORRECT answers to these questions?

1.In Luke 7:50, what did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED the woman? The exact word He used?
"Jesus said to her, 'Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace."

Bonnie--I started a thread for us--just so we can discuss this point in more detail.

It's entitled--"Saved by--what?"
 
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