Saving faith in Lutheran theology
- Thread starter dberrie2020
- Start date
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Believers were created in Christ Jesus to do good works God prepares. Yes, you need to do them. Yes, you need to obey God.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Hi DB,
I didn't read all the posts, but enough to answer no, otherwise, Scripture could not say faith not works.
Your analogous examples of house and car make our long-standing point rather than the one you are attempting to make. This is because context matters. The house and car you describe might be ones that you and I might like to use or own but there are millions of examples in the world of each which don't fit your description.
And so it is with faith. Faith and works, even faith and good works, are not synonyms. The cause and effect distinction of faith and works doesn't make them synonyms nor does sever the two.
HillsboroMom
Active member
I think others have answered this sufficiently, but you didn't seem to understand, so let me state this for the record:
Works are a result of God's grace, not a condition of it.
HillsboroMom
Active member
It's not "integral" that you need to define; perhaps it's "saving faith."
Using your example of a house, perhaps WORKS is to FAITH as FURNITURE is to HOUSE. I'd say furniture is an integral part of the house, but you're not going to get the furniture until you have a house to put it in.
Using your example of a house, perhaps WORKS is to FAITH as FURNITURE is to HOUSE. I'd say furniture is an integral part of the house, but you're not going to get the furniture until you have a house to put it in.
HillsboroMom
Active member
I support your right to believe that.
However, it is not a Scriptural belief, and I respectfully disagree with it.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Well then you need to read Ephesians 2:10 again.
HillsboroMom
Active member
Saying that we are not saved by good works does not imply that we should avoid doing good works. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Lutherans believe that.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
You don't do God's works, you won't be saved. Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom. Ephesians 2:8-10 tells you that a man is saved from his old way of life to live a new life doing God's works rather than his own and doing God's works is doing the will of the Father. Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom and His will is everything Jesus taught his disciples.
Bonnie
Super Member
Can we do the will of the Father outside of salvation?
Do we do the will of the Father to GET salvation?
OR do we do the will of the Father BECAUSE we are saved?
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Tertiumquid
Well-known member
How is this good news? Sounds like get your act together or you're in big trouble theology.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
We do the will of the Father to be saved on the last day. No one but those who do the will of the Father will be enter the Kingdom of God. "Why do you call me "Lord, Lord" and not do what I say?
Nic
Well-known member
Does "doing the will of the Father" include or exclude sin? Do you sin?
Bonnie
Super Member
Our God is the true God--Father, ,Son, and Holy Spirit, the great Three in One.
HillsboroMom
Active member
Again, you have the right to believe that.
I don't interpret Eph 2:8-10 the way you do.
And I don't think it's right or proper for any human to usurp God's job. God should be the only one doing God's work. We should be doing OUR work, not God's.
God's job is to save people. Our job is to serve people. Two very different things.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
It's in your Bible.
Really? So then you are not created in Christ Jesus nor do you do the works of God. thank you for letting us know.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Taking scripture out of context isn't helpful.
Since you didn't cite a passage I will use one from the nt, from Luke 6. The context is not salvation by your works.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Oh do tell how this was "out of context."
Jesus said if you do not do the will of the Father then you will not enter the Kingdom. Everything he had just taught in the Sermon on the Mount is the will of the Father. "My teaching is not mine but His who sent me" (John 7:16).
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.’ 24 “THEREFORE everyone who hears these words of mine and does them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
Why do you call me "Lord, Lord" and not do what I say?
BJ Bear
Well-known member
It was already explained so prove by what it actually says that people are saved by their works.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Are you having difficulty understanding what Jesus said?
Or is the problem accepting what he said?