School Masters / Tutors and Governors

ontheBeam

Member
Seems like you have a reading comprehension problem.
How did you know. Yes, I have to read and re-read in order to be able to comprehend all there is in God's message to us.

I cannot believe you thought I didn't.
I can only tell by what you have written as compared to scripture.

Seems like you don't understand Paul at all.
Ditto

Seems like you don't understand simple English.
I didn't realize English is simple.

There is no doubt that the phrase “written and engraven in stones” refers to the Ten Commandments. Notice that Paul does not say that that which was “written and engraven in stones” was done away, but he said the “glory was to be done away.” Paul said that the “ministration” of the law “was glorious,” “which glory was to be done away.” It is clear from this verse that Paul was not referring to the Ten Commandments as being “done away.”
Hold on there partner. I will once again paste Paul's verses and bisect them. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, The subject is the ten commandments and transitory is referring to the subject not, how the subject came. The ten commandments were transitory. That should clear up any confusion, but I will proceed with the remainder of the verses.

8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
Here Paul is comparing the ministry of the ten with the ministry of the Spirit. As the verses indicate there is no comparison. One brought condemnation and death and the one we are under brings righteousness.

10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Verse 10 is the clinker that denies your theory. Verse 7 says the ten came with glory, so tell me again what was glorious. Yes, the ten and they do not compare with the Holy Spirit which is what surpasses the ten. In fact the ten which what were transitory, they came with Glory, and the glory that lasts is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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For some reason I cannot put quotations around the next paragraph, so I will stop here. I hope you get my point.

This fact is made even more certain when we look at other verses written by Paul. The beginning of Romans chapter three is taken up with Paul proving, from the Old Testament, that every man is a sinner in need of a Saviour. He wrote, “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” (Romans 3:19) Here Paul says that “the law” speaks that “all the world may become guilty before God,” “that every mouth may be stopped.”

According to Paul, the law speaks to every man, convicting them of their guilt. A law that has been done away could not possibly convict a man of his guilt. If I am driving down the road at 70 miles per hour in an area where the speed limit used to be 55, but now has been done away, can that abolished law possibly convict me that I am guilty of breaking it? Certainly not! An abolished law is useless, and unable to convict of sin.

Notice how Paul ends Romans chapter three. After explaining how we can be justified of our transgression of the law, he wrote, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31) It would be pointless and ridiculous for Paul to say that we establish an abolished law. Furthermore, he said clearly that we do not make void the law. In other words, the law is still in effect.

This point is brought out even more forcefully by the words of James, when he wrote, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:10-12) James was evidently referring to the Ten Commandment law as “the law of liberty” by which we “shall be judged.” You can be certain that we will not be judged by a law that has been abolished.

Also notice that James said that if you break the Ten Commandment law you are a “transgressor of the law.” John wrote, “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4) If the law has been abolished, it is not possible for anyone to transgress it and, hence, there would be no such thing as sin or sinners, and no need for a Saviour. Certainly nobody could accept such an absurd idea, yet if we make the claim that the law is abolished we have no choice but accept the inescapable conclusion that sin is non-existent and needs no pardon.
Again, Paul wrote, “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Romans 7:7) It is certain that Paul is referring to the Ten Commandment law because he quoted the tenth commandment. He goes on to say, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good… I consent unto the law that it is good.” (Romans 7:12, 16) It is evident that in 2 Corinthians 3:7 Paul was not referring to the law as being done away, but to the glory that attended Moses’ ministration of that law. Furthermore, God said that the New Covenant consisted in Him taking that same law and writing it in our hearts. (Hebrews 8:10) As we continue with the remaining verses of second Corinthians chapter three we will see this point brought out more clearly.

“How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.” (2 Corinthians 3:8, 9)
Notice that Paul is referring to the ministration of the law as glorious, rather than the law itself.

“For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.” (2 Corinthians 3:10, 11)

What is done away? Some mistakenly assume that this refers to the Ten Commandments. However, we have seen that this is not possible. Furthermore, the context clearly refers to Moses’ ministration as being glorious. It is Moses’ ministration, and the glory that attended it, that was done away, not the law itself. Now, the ministration of righteousness exceeds the glory of the ministration of Moses. The same Ten Commandment law is being ministered, but now it is ministered by the Spirit, “that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4)

“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.” (2 Corinthians 3:12, 13)

Notice, Paul said that the vail over Moses’ face hid “that which is abolished.” What was the vail hiding? Not the Ten Commandment law engraved in the stones which he was holding in his hands, but the glory of Moses’ ministration of that law. That is what was abolished.

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14)

Now, through Christ, we can read the Old Testament without the vail. The Old Testament becomes a new book to those who understand the mission of Christ. The vail was taken away from the two men who were on the road to Emmaus when Jesus, “beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27) After they read the Old Testament for the first time without the vail, “they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?” (Luke 24:32)

When we read the whole passage of second Corinthians chapter three in its full context it is indeed very clear.
 

ontheBeam

Member
Some more of the post.
This fact is made even more certain when we look at other verses written by Paul. The beginning of Romans chapter three is taken up with Paul proving, from the Old Testament, that every man is a sinner in need of a Saviour. He wrote, “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” (Romans 3:19) Here Paul says that “the law” speaks that “all the world may become guilty before God,” “that every mouth may be stopped.”
Jew or gentile, we are all sinners, with or without the law. The Law was never given to any gentile nation yet all are sinners.

According to Paul, the law speaks to every man, convicting them of their guilt. A law that has been done away could not possibly convict a man of his guilt. If I am driving down the road at 70 miles per hour in an area where the speed limit used to be 55, but now has been done away, can that abolished law possibly convict me that I am guilty of breaking it? Certainly not! An abolished law is useless, and unable to convict of sin.
Hold on there friend, Jesus didn't leave us lawless as some like to proclaim we who believe we are not under the laws of the old covenant. later you posted 1Jn3:4,but you din't quote what Jn wrote as to what law He was referring. Read verses 19-24 to find oud the laws Christians can transgress.
Notice how Paul ends Romans chapter three. After explaining how we can be justified of our transgression of the law, he wrote, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31) It would be pointless and ridiculous for Paul to say that we establish an abolished law. Furthermore, he said clearly that we do not make void the law. In other words, the law is still in effect.
Notice paul never tell us we are under those laws. Verse 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

This point is brought out even more forcefully by the words of James, when he wrote, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:10-12) James was evidently referring to the Ten Commandment law as “the law of liberty” by which we “shall be judged.” You can be certain that we will not be judged by a law that has been abolished.
I contend he was referring to the Royal Law of Love.

 

ontheBeam

Member
Also notice that James said that if you break the Ten Commandment law you are a “transgressor of the law.” John wrote, “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4) If the law has been abolished, it is not possible for anyone to transgress it and, hence, there would be no such thing as sin or sinners, and no need for a Saviour. Certainly nobody could accept such an absurd idea, yet if we make the claim that the law is abolished we have no choice but accept the inescapable conclusion that sin is non-existent and needs no pardon.
Did he mean ten commandments or the Royal Law of Love? I contend he meant the Royal Law of Love the one Jesus gave us in Jn15:10. Remember gentiles never ever were under the ten commandments, and John was writing to Christians of which many were gentiles.

Again, Paul wrote, “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Romans 7:7) It is certain that Paul is referring to the Ten Commandment law because he quoted the tenth commandment. He goes on to say, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good… I consent unto the law that it is good.” (Romans 7:12, 16) It is evident that in 2 Corinthians 3:7 Paul was not referring to the law as being done away, but to the glory that attended Moses’ ministration of that law. Furthermore, God said that the New Covenant consisted in Him taking that same law and writing it in our hearts. (Hebrews 8:10) As we continue with the remaining verses of second Corinthians chapter three we will see this point brought out more clearly.
Why would anyone contend that the Law was sin. God cannot do sin. The Law was perfect. God gave it to Israel as their guide or constitution. The only thing the law could not do is save even one soul. It was perfect fo what it intended to accomplish. Israelites were not. It is not in the least way evident that 2 cor 3 to glory as previously noted.

“How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.” (2 Corinthians 3:8, 9)
Notice that Paul is referring to the ministration of the law as glorious, rather than the law itself.
Ministration of the Law??? It seems to me it was the ministration that brought death that was written on stone, the ten commandments.

“For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.” (2 Corinthians 3:10, 11)
I contend it was the ten commandments that came with Glory and that glory was transitory. The Holy Spirit replaced the ministry that brought death.
What is done away? Some mistakenly assume that this refers to the Ten Commandments. However, we have seen that this is not possible. Furthermore, the context clearly refers to Moses’ ministration as being glorious. It is Moses’ ministration, and the glory that attended it, that was done away, not the law itself. Now, the ministration of righteousness exceeds the glory of the ministration of Moses. The same Ten Commandment law is being ministered, but now it is ministered by the Spirit, “that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4)
I hope by now you will retract all that and see the real truth of what Paul is expounding.

“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.” (2 Corinthians 3:12, 13)
Notice, Paul said that the vail over Moses’ face hid “that which is abolished.” What was the vail hiding? Not the Ten Commandment law engraved in the stones which he was holding in his hands, but the glory of Moses’ ministration of that law. That is what was abolished.

 

ontheBeam

Member
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14)
The NLT doesn't agree with what you proclaim.
6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

The Glory of the New Covenant​

7 The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8 Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! 10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. 11 So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!

12 Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

 

ontheBeam

Member
Now, through Christ, we can read the Old Testament without the vail. The Old Testament becomes a new book to those who understand the mission of Christ. The vail was taken away from the two men who were on the road to Emmaus when Jesus, “beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27) After they read the Old Testament for the first time without the vail, “they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?” (Luke 24:32)
When we read the whole passage of second Corinthians chapter three in its full context it is indeed very clear.
Indeed it is. We are not under the ten commandments as our guide, we have the Holy Spirit guiding us. Since the ten commandments were temporary the cannot be what is written on/in our hearts. It has to be Jesus love command.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Indeed it is. We are not under the ten commandments as our guide, we have the Holy Spirit guiding us. Since the ten commandments were temporary the cannot be what is written on/in our hearts. It has to be Jesus love command.
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. John 17:21-23
 

ontheBeam

Member
Unity, what a wonderful promise. Seems like satan is doing his work well in keeping that from happening. About the only thing Christianity is unified in is that Jesus is our Savior. Even that fact is being challenged.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Unity, what a wonderful promise. Seems like satan is doing his work well in keeping that from happening. About the only thing Christianity is unified in is that Jesus is our Savior. Even that fact is being challenged.
Keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:3-7

 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Yes, Jesus was born under the Law raised under the Law and died under the Law that mankind could be freed from the Law.
Freed from the penalty of the law; not the obligation of the law.
Notice though that the Law didn't end until Jesus fulfilled it.
Notice that fulfilling the law doesn't end the law. Fulfilling the "curse" or "penalty" of the law fulfills only the curse or penalty of the law.
Another point, it was not only the ten that He kept and taught, it was all the Law. Wow! that is a lot of commandments we would have to be under.
And they are all summed up in the law of love which only those who have God's love can possibly fulfill. The carnal man can't and never will.
At the Cross Jesus ratified the new and better covenant with His own Blood giving Israel and all mankind an eternal covenant of grace.
The new covenant explicitly points out that the law is kept. Moreover, Christ only covers sins committed under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15). He does not rule over sinners, but those who keep the law.
I never noticed before, Jesus didn't mention keeping the Sabbath.
He does point out that "all" of the law can be "summed" in love though, and all doesn't allow us to factor out those laws we don't want to keep.
SDAs believe the Sabbath command has a halo around it. I guess Jesus didn't think so because He didn't mention it as something the young man needed to do. I learn something every day.
Both Jesus and Paul point out that there is nothing one can do to be saved. Being faithful to your spouse will never save you. Being honest in all business dealings will never save anyone. It doesn't then follow that God or anyone else is suggesting that it is perfectly acceptable to sin. You are committing a logical fallacy; the Non Sequitur.

No one is saved by keeping the law. No one is justified or made righteous by keeping the law. The gospel points out that only those who are saved by the grace of God can keep the law, and only the doers of the law shall be justified.

Just because they aren't justified by the law they keep, it doesn't negate the fact that they're keeping the law. This is just an assumption on your part; aka Begging the Question.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Freed from the penalty of the law; not the obligation of the law.
That doesn't hold water. If you have an obligation to fulfill the law and stumble at just one point, the penalty remains.
Notice that fulfilling the law doesn't end the law.
Notice that they wanted to teach the law of Moses, but they do not understand what they declare nor which they affirm.
For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Fulfilling the "curse" or "penalty" of the law fulfills only the curse or penalty of the law.
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3
And they are all summed up in the law of love which only those who have God's love can possibly fulfill. The carnal man can't and never will.
And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called to belong to Christ. Romans 8:28-29
The new covenant explicitly points out that the law is kept.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Just because they aren't justified by the law they keep, it doesn't negate the fact that they're keeping the law.
So surely the new covenant that comes from the life-giving Spirit has even more glory. 2 Cor 3:8-9
 
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SDAchristian

Well-known member
I can remember some silly ones from my youth:
It's ok to roll your pants up to your knees and wade, but it's a sin to swim.
It's a sin to play Spades with a regular deck of playing cards, but it's ok to play Rook.
It's a sin to eat scallops, but it's ok to eat Skallops.
It's a sin to eat ham, but it's ok to eat a substitute called Wham.
It's a sin to watch a movie in a theater, but it's ok to watch that exact same movie a couple of years later in the multi-purpose room at the church on a Saturday night.
It's a sin to wear jewelry like a simple wedding band, but it's ok to sport a Rolex or a brooch.
AV Ex 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Who told you everyone in the SDA Church is saved then ???

Who says that everyone in the first day churches are saved either ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
AV Ex 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Who told you everyone in the SDA Church is saved then ???

Who says that everyone in the first day churches are saved either ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Once again, you twist words and ask a red herring of a question. Where did I say that someone told me that everyone in the SDA Church is saved? I was pointing out how there were another set of Adventist "laws" that were applied on top of all of the Laws found in the Torah. Kind of like the Pharisees did.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
For whoever has been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith. 1 John 5:4
Once again, you twist words and ask a red herring of a question. Where did I say that someone told me that everyone in the SDA Church is saved?
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God; 1 John 5:5
 
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