Scientific evidence for Christianity

[Tetsugaku]

It must really suck to lack the courage...

It must really suck to always have to resort to insulting people instead of addressing what they say.

But I guess when you lack evidence and aren't able to admit to your mistakes, you can't really do anything else.

 

[Whateverman]

It might be hard to use the scientific method for studying God because you would need a test group where God does not exist in order to compare it to the group where he does exist. IOW an omnipotent entity who transcends time and space cannot be excluded from one group of test subjects while another contains him.

This is not correct. You can study the effect of gravity on things without needing a test group where gravity doesn't exist, for example. Studying God would have to involve scenarios in which God could-not be attributed with having had an influence; then you could study the ones in which He supposedly did.

Although, I have read about observational studies testing prayer for curing medical illness and it did not find a difference in results. One group had family praying and another group had nobody praying. The outcomes were the same suggesting prayers for actual diagnosed illness is the same in both groups.

Does that mean God does not exist? Not sure what it proves other than our prayers are not always answered and that could be a good thing. Nevertheless, if we pray according to his will then scripture says it is supposed to happen. I guess the trick is knowing his will which is easier said than done.

No, it doesn't mean God doesn't exist. All it would do is imply the non-existence, but a more reasonable interpretation would be merely to say no Godly answers/effects were found.

Interestingly, there was a massive prayer study done in which people prayed anonymously for the health of sick patients (compared with those patients who got no prayers). Apparently, the patients receiving the prayers actually had a slightly higher incidence of heart problems. This study was an endless topic of discussion online some years back:

Prayers Don't Help Heart Surgery Patients; Some Fare Worse When Prayed For

So far, two studies found that third-party prayers bestow benefits, but two others concluded that there are no benefits. Now, the largest study to date, covering 1,800 people who underwent coronary bypass surgery at six different hospitals, supported the latter research.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Andy Sist]

It must really suck to lack the courage to take the time to read the bible, learn what is necessary to do what Jesus said, and then take the time that the rest of us Jesus followers have been doing for 1987 years.

It sucks even more to claim to have scientific evidence for your religion then turn and run like a scared child when asked to back up your claims and present this evidence.

 

[SteveB]

It must really suck to always have to resort to insulting people instead of addressing what they say.

But I guess when you lack evidence and aren't able to admit to your mistakes, you can't really do anything else.

I've long wondered why you're so petrified of doing what I've described and what Jesus said.

If you actually loved the truth as much as you claim, this issue would have been answered several years ago. But here you are, still whining about the same exact thing as you were years ago.

So, don't blame me for your refusal to engage God himself on his terms.

I think the problem here isn't that you are afraid nothing will happen.

I think it's that you're petrified that God will answer, and then you'll have to abandon your sin and place your trust in Jesus and the very idea of that shakes you to the very core of your being.

Pretty much the same as it does for all the atheists here.

You guys have access to more knowledge and information about God than the bible writers, and they actually knew God's reality firsthand.

So, you can stop playing games with yourself. Your excuses wore themselves out years ago.

 

[SteveB]

It sucks even more to claim to have scientific evidence for your religion then turn and run like a scared child when asked to back up your claims and present this evidence.

As I stated in my post to Pixie, and copied again...

If you actually loved science, and were scientifically literate, you would not be talking to me.

You'd be knee deep in reading the bible and working through what it means to do what Jesus said.

So, I'm not the one who has run away.
This is a very simple question of whether you want to know the truth about Jesus and God or not.

This is not a philosophical construct. The bible plainly stated that this is a relational dynamic between us and our Creator.

Berating me because of your biases will not justify your beliefs.

Doing what Jesus said is what will justify the truth.

 

[Andy Sist]

If you actually loved science, and were scientifically literate, you would not be talking to me.

I'm not talking to you because you have nothing to say. I'm just pointing out you're a scientifically illiterate gasbag who made a rather ridiculous claim to have scientific evidence for your religion and now look like a fool trying to squirm out of it.

 

[Komodo]

This has absolutely nothing to do with "personal testimonies" [. . . .]

So when you described how scientists worked, then, that had absolutely nothing to do with taking a scientific approach towards your testimony that you simply asked "God, are you real?" and he answered you. That was not the "scientific evidence" you were talking about. You are not offering that experience as anything subject to scientific testing. It's good to have you on record about that.

Now what is the equivalent of "journal articles," "data," "equipment" and the rest, which leads to the conclusion, "the reality of God and Jesus is supported by scientific evidence"?

 

[Tetsugaku]

I've long wondered why you're so petrified of doing what I've described and what Jesus said.

I'm not. Everything you've described I've either already done, can't be done without prior belief, or isn't necessary according to your own account.

If you actually loved the truth as much as you claim, this issue would have been answered several years ago.

It has been. The only question remaining is why you continue to preach a failed methodology while hiding behind vagueness at every turn.

So, don't blame me for your refusal to engage God himself on his terms.

I'm not refusing to do anything. I've done all you suggest and God doesn't answer. Your faith seems to prevent you from processing this simple fact.

 

[SteveB]

the problem is that God is not interested in the science of this cosmos.

Maybe the god you've concocted.

It's ironic that he provided us with the resources to work through it.

And even stating as much.

Pro 25:2 WEB It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

But, what do I know.

You go right ahead and enjoy your views.

 

[The Pixie]

Do what Jesus said, and you'll be able to answer that question for yourself.

I have the same evidence that every other Jesus follower has had for millennia.

Clearly you cannot answer the question.

You made the claim that you had evidence obtained using the scientific method, when when challenged on that, the best you can reply is "Do what Jesus said, and you'll be able to answer that question for yourself."

Which leads he to conclude your claim was not true.

On the other thread I started an experiment:

Another test. I think you are full of BS. If my hypothesis is right, then you will fail to show anything like the scientific method on that thread. If I am wrong (and I may well be; I have the humility to admit that that is always possible), then you will be able to show how you used the scientific method to show the God of the Bible exists.​

At this stage, I think I can safely say: Hypothesis confirmed.

Thank you for your participation, Steve.

 

[The Pixie]

It might be hard to use the scientific method for studying God because you would need a test group where God does not exist in order to compare it to the group where he does exist. IOW an omnipotent entity who transcends time and space cannot be excluded from one group of test subjects while another contains him.

Although, I have read about observational studies testing prayer for curing medical illness and it did not find a difference in results. One group had family praying and another group had nobody praying. The outcomes were the same suggesting prayers for actual diagnosed illness is the same in both groups.

Does that mean God does not exist? Not sure what it proves other than our prayers are not always answered and that could be a good thing. Nevertheless, if we pray according to his will then scripture says it is supposed to happen. I guess the trick is knowing his will which is easier said than done.

To a degree, I would agree (some religious claims can be tested).

However, the point of the thread is that SteveB claimed that he had that scientific evidence, and I did not believe him. I think that has now been resolved, and I was right to doubt his claim.

 

[docphin5]

This is not correct. You can study the effect of gravity on things without needing a test group where gravity doesn't exist, for example. Studying God would have to involve scenarios in which God could-not be attributed with having had an influence; then you could study the ones in which He supposedly did.

You make a good point. How is gravity scientifically demonstrated If everywhere? By finding an area in the cosmos where it is negligible versus where it is pronounced and comparing its effects to other objects. so where matter is clumped (eg galaxy clusters), it is observed to pull objects closer and bend light, versus where it is absent, no effect.

Maybe that is how we scientifically demonstrate the Good God. IOW how he affects things on a cosmic scale. If the cosmos can be demonstrated to have a fundamental order to it then the case could be made for his power. So Although we see the phenomena of God in the manifest virtues in us just as Newton saw the apple drop to the ground, the scientific proof of the Good God is in the cosmos just as it was for gravity.

No, it doesn't mean God doesn't exist. All it would do is imply the non-existence, but a more reasonable interpretation would be merely to say no Godly answers/effects were found.

True. I personally have anecdotal evidence for answered prayer but that doesn’t help anyone else believe. The problem may be with me as I have asked for MANY things over my life and in retrospect appreciate that God did NOT grant my every request, for I might be married to a different person, have different kids, live somewhere else and I wouldn’t want that. My wife, my kids, and my community are perfect for me Right where I am at.

Interestingly, there was a massive prayer study done in which people prayed anonymously for the health of sick patients (compared with those patients who got no prayers). Apparently, the patients receiving the prayers actually had a slightly higher incidence of heart problems. This study was an endless topic of discussion online some years back:

 

[SteveB]

Clearly you cannot answer the question.

You made the claim that you had evidence obtained using the scientific method, when when challenged on that, the best you can reply is "Do what Jesus said, and you'll be able to answer that question for yourself."

Which leads he to conclude your claim was not true.

On the other thread I started an experiment:

Another test. I think you are full of BS. If my hypothesis is right, then you will fail to show anything like the scientific method on that thread. If I am wrong (and I may well be; I have the humility to admit that that is always possible), then you will be able to show how you used the scientific method to show the God of the Bible exists.​

At this stage, I think I can safely say: Hypothesis confirmed.

Thank you for your participation, Steve.

As you said....

YOU THINK.... This is entirely about WHAT YOU THINK. And your "hypothesis confirmed" is what's known as confirmation bias. I.e., your refusal to do what Jesus followers have been doing for the past 1987, and taking the lazy way out.... truth is not your interest. confirming your previously existing beliefs is.

If you want the truth, then do what the rest of us have been doing for 1987 years.
Until you actually do this, you're going to continue to think and the moment after you die, you'll realize just how wrong your thinking was.

As it is written.

There's a way that makes sense to a man, but the end thereof leads to death.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​

​

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

It's a curious thing, that Jesus himself put together a simple construct for scientific inquiry, and the scientific method.

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”​

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”​

​

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.​

So..... do you possess the moral fortitude to reach out beyond your existing beliefs, that "confirm your hypothesis"?
Or, do you run and hide like the child you've made yourself to be?

We who follow Jesus....
We started off without any knowledge of these things.
Jesus was just some guy in history, who did something that changed the course of world history. A very, long, long, long time ago.
It was talked about in school, history, world government, etc....

But as we grew older, we started hearing stories about people whose lives were changed. In other countries, people were getting slaughtered like animals and they went to their deaths with a smile on their face, singing joyous songs. And they were not soldiers with guns, tanks, and bombs. They were mothers, children, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters.
We then started hearing stories of people who lived where we lived. People who'd destroyed their lives with drugs, alcohol, an over-abundance of sex, violence, turning to this Jesus. They'd become new people. People who were once filled with hate and bitterness, now filled with love and joy. they went from frown-filled, scowling faces, to faces filled with joy, and peace. Even the ones in prisons for the crimes they'd previously committed.

People with whom we hung out, and used to get stoned with, now talking about this guy Jesus, as though he was really alive, right here and now. A guy with whom they hung out, and engaged in daily conversation. This is where is got strange. It's one thing to hear stories about others not in your own circles. It's another altogether to have your own friends talk about him.

It's another thing altogether to take the time to learn for yourself. To engage these changed people in conversation, ask them questions, and have them tell you--- come and see for yourself. I had to. I could no longer ignore what I was seeing, hearing for myself. So I did. And boy what I found. What was shown to me.

So.... yeah.... you can indeed only seek to confirm your own beliefs. that's easy. Cowards have been doing it for centuries.
Men, Women, and adults who have courage..... they don't let their previously held beliefs prevent them from learning the truth.

Jesus has made the way to actually know.

 

[5wize]

As you said....

YOU THINK.... This is entirely about WHAT YOU THINK. And your "hypothesis confirmed" is what's known as confirmation bias. I.e., your refusal to do what Jesus followers have been doing for the past 1987, and taking the lazy way out.... truth is not your interest. confirming your previously existing beliefs is.

If you want the truth, then do what the rest of us have been doing for 1987 years.
Until you actually do this, you're going to continue to think and the moment after you die, you'll realize just how wrong your thinking was.

As it is written.

There's a way that makes sense to a man, but the end thereof leads to death.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​

​

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

It's a curious thing, that Jesus himself put together a simple construct for scientific inquiry, and the scientific method.

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”​

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”​

​

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.​

So..... do you possess the moral fortitude to reach out beyond your existing beliefs, that "confirm your hypothesis"?
Or, do you run and hide like the child you've made yourself to be?

We who follow Jesus....
We started off without any knowledge of these things.
Jesus was just some guy in history, who did something that changed the course of world history. A very, long, long, long time ago.
It was talked about in school, history, world government, etc....

But as we grew older, we started hearing stories about people whose lives were changed. In other countries, people were getting slaughtered like animals and they went to their deaths with a smile on their face, singing joyous songs. And they were not soldiers with guns, tanks, and bombs. They were mothers, children, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters.
We then started hearing stories of people who lived where we lived. People who'd destroyed their lives with drugs, alcohol, an over-abundance of sex, violence, turning to this Jesus. They'd become new people. People who were once filled with hate and bitterness, now filled with love and joy. they went from frown-filled, scowling faces, to faces filled with joy, and peace. Even the ones in prisons for the crimes they'd previously committed.

People with whom we hung out, and used to get stoned with, now talking about this guy Jesus, as though he was really alive, right here and now. A guy with whom they hung out, and engaged in daily conversation. This is where is got strange. It's one thing to hear stories about others not in your own circles. It's another altogether to have your own friends talk about him.

It's another thing altogether to take the time to learn for yourself. To engage these changed people in conversation, ask them questions, and have them tell you--- come and see for yourself. I had to. I could no longer ignore what I was seeing, hearing for myself. So I did. And boy what I found. What was shown to me.

So.... yeah.... you can indeed only seek to confirm your own beliefs. that's easy. Cowards have been doing it for centuries.
Men, Women, and adults who have courage..... they don't let their previously held beliefs prevent them from learning the truth.

Jesus has made the way to actually know.

That is some laughable stuff there boy. You know a good Muslin has been doing that for almost just as long with different results. How did you compare the 2 experiments that seem to have proven different results? I think you chose wrong and billions of Muslims practicing for close to 2000 years have proven either that you are dead wrong at most or you are not done with your study at least. You may be in communication with the devil as well as the rest of you experimenters for the last 1987 years.
Your bias is not science.

 

[SteveB]

That is some laughable stuff there boy. You know a good Muslin has been doing that for almost just as long with different results. How did you compare the 2 experiments that seem to have proven different results? I think you chose wrong and billions of Muslims practicing for close to 2000 years have proven either that you are dead wrong at most or you are not done with your study at least. You may be in communication with the devil as well as the rest of you experimenters for the last 1987 years

Good for you.
As muslims have only been around for 1400 years, you go right ahead, and do what allah tells muslims.
Make yourself a bomb, go bomb a group of people, and then when you wake up in paradise---- come back and tell us what it's like.
Did you really get 72 virgins, or were they actually 72 pissed off Virginians, kicking your butt, and B-slapping you with welding gloves, and the demons mocking, and laughing at you for your stupidity?

 

[Andy Sist]

If you want the truth, then do what the rest of us have been doing for 1987 years.

Who is "the rest of us"? You're the only one I've seen here making the ridiculous claim to have scientific evidence for your religious beliefs.

Or, do you run and hide like the child you've made yourself to be?

You're also the only one who has been running and hiding like a child when asked to provide your claimed evidence. Maybe the problem is you're too scientifically illiterate to understand what the scientific method actually is and how it works.

 

[SteveB]

Who is "the rest of us"? You're the only one I've seen here making the ridiculous claim to have scientific evidence for your religious beliefs.

Jesus followers.

You're also the only one who has been running and hiding like a child when asked to provide your claimed evidence. Maybe the problem is you're too scientifically illiterate to understand what the scientific method actually is and how it works.

And yet, I see no evidence presented by you to show what you did.
Which I find curious, for someone who accused me of being scientifically illiterate.
Someone who is as literate as your accusations establishes you to be, I'd expect you to be all over it.
If for no other reason than to actually prove I'm wrong.
Come on.
Write it up.
Post it.
Let's see what you did, what you used to do the tests, what took place.

 

[Andy Sist]

Jesus followers.

Where? I haven't seen any other Jesus followers here making the same ridiculous claim you did of having scientific evidence to support your religious beliefs. You're making up stuff again.

If for no other reason than to actually prove I'm wrong.

You proved yourself wrong by running like a child every time someone asks you to provide your claimed scientific evidence. We'll chalk it up as a combination of your scientific ignorance and desperate desire to convince yourself your Born Again choice was the only right one.

 

[SteveB]

Where? I haven't seen any other Jesus followers here making the same ridiculous claim you did of having scientific evidence to support your religious beliefs. You're making up stuff again.

We actually live real lives.
So, if you think that a small, backwoods forum is where we all hang out, you're living in the wrong reality.

You proved yourself wrong by running like a child every time someone asks you to provide your claimed scientific evidence. We'll chalk it up as a combination of your scientific ignorance and desperate desire to convince yourself your Born Again choice was the only right one.

I provided you with the materials to be used to do what's needed.
So, your whining about it, is not my problem, nor my fault.
And seeking to make it mine, only shows your own cowardice.

 

[Andy Sist]

We actually live real lives.

"We" I'll accept your admission no other Jesus followers here support your inane claim. You need a new excuse for failing so badly.

I provided you with the materials to be used to do what's needed.

Cowardly excuse for not providing your claimed evidence noted. You really embarrassed yourself on this one. Of course it's not like that's anything new.