SDA and Hebrews 1:1-2

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It seems religious groups get themselves in trouble when they decide that they need prophet. I can go look at our Word Faith friends who have monopolized the prophets and now apostles. There are the Jehovah Witnesses and the LDS who have their prophets too. Each have had numerous false prophecies.

I see the SDA have their prophet. There are two questions that come to mind. How does the average Adventist deal with Hebrews 1:1-2? Why would we really need a prophet after the coming of Yashuah ha Maschiach, Jesus the Messiah? Does the average Adventist believe that we need to add scripture to the Bible?
 

Victor

Active member
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It seems religious groups get themselves in trouble when they decide that they need prophet. I can go look at our Word Faith friends who have monopolized the prophets and now apostles. There are the Jehovah Witnesses and the LDS who have their prophets too. Each have had numerous false prophecies.

I see the SDA have their prophet. There are two questions that come to mind. How does the average Adventist deal with Hebrews 1:1-2? Why would we really need a prophet after the coming of Yashuah ha Maschiach, Jesus the Messiah? Does the average Adventist believe that we need to add scripture to the Bible?
Observe this quote written by Ellen White:

In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue. - Counsels for the Church, p. 91.2 (Ellen G. White)​

By "testimonies", she refers to her own writings. Does this sound familiar to the quote from Hebrews 1?
That qualifies as an addition to Scripture.
 

Formersda

Active member
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It seems religious groups get themselves in trouble when they decide that they need prophet. I can go look at our Word Faith friends who have monopolized the prophets and now apostles. There are the Jehovah Witnesses and the LDS who have their prophets too. Each have had numerous false prophecies.

I see the SDA have their prophet. There are two questions that come to mind. How does the average Adventist deal with Hebrews 1:1-2? Why would we really need a prophet after the coming of Yashuah ha Maschiach, Jesus the Messiah? Does the average Adventist believe that we need to add scripture to the Bible?
Hi Yodas,

The SDA church put those verses as a reference to EGW not to Christ, therefore, the last days to SDAS means from 1844 not since Christ ascended.

18 The Gift of Prophecy (EGW)
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the rem- nant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)


This is from the 28 fundamentals of the sda church, number 18 is ”the gift of prophecy“ quite interesting if you like parts of proof texts put into a document but please note the Hebrews 1:1-3 ref they have attributed those verses to EGW not to Christ.
 

Icyspark

Active member
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It seems religious groups get themselves in trouble when they decide that they need prophet. I can go look at our Word Faith friends who have monopolized the prophets and now apostles. There are the Jehovah Witnesses and the LDS who have their prophets too. Each have had numerous false prophecies.

I see the SDA have their prophet. There are two questions that come to mind. How does the average Adventist deal with Hebrews 1:1-2? Why would we really need a prophet after the coming of Yashuah ha Maschiach, Jesus the Messiah? Does the average Adventist believe that we need to add scripture to the Bible?


Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

What do you do with all the New Testament prophets who are identified after Jesus?

God bless!
 

Icyspark

Active member
What do you do with Hebrews 1:1-2?


Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

My question to you is what I do with Hebrews 1:1-2. If you acknowledge prophets after Jesus then your imposed interpretation of these two verses is incorrect. So again, what do you do with all the New Testament prophets who are identified after Jesus? Is the apostle John to be rejected for writing "the words of this prophecy to the church" (i.e. Revelation)? Using a narrow interpretation of Hebrews 1:1-2 would indicate your answer should be yes. What do you say?

God bless!
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

My question to you is what I do with Hebrews 1:1-2. If you acknowledge prophets after Jesus then your imposed interpretation of these two verses is incorrect. So again, what do you do with all the New Testament prophets who are identified after Jesus? Is the apostle John to be rejected for writing "the words of this prophecy to the church" (i.e. Revelation)? Using a narrow interpretation of Hebrews 1:1-2 would indicate your answer should be yes. What do you say?

God bless!

Well, you never answered my question. The Apostles were a specialized group of men... They were gifted directly from Christ. Even they lost some of their gifts as their days moved forward. For example, Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomach ailment instead of calling for a healing.

Prophets who came after the Apostles were to speak forth God's word... Not new words or predicting the future... the Canon was complete before the end of the first century...

What makes your prophet better than the prophets of the Watchtower or LDS?
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish,
and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts
.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty,
and remember his misery no more
.

Well, you never answered my question. The Apostles were a specialized group of men... They were gifted directly from Christ. Even they lost some of their gifts as their days moved forward. For example, Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomach ailment instead of calling for a healing.
 

Icyspark

Active member
Well, you never answered my question. The Apostles were a specialized group of men... They were gifted directly from Christ. Even they lost some of their gifts as their days moved forward. For example, Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomach ailment instead of calling for a healing. [👈 I'm thinking this is a leap in logic. Even if someone had the gift of healing, it is still God's prerogative to determine whether a healing occurs. Paul prayed for healing yet God told him no.]

Prophets who came after the Apostles were to speak forth God's word... Not new words or predicting the future... the Canon was complete before the end of the first century... [There is no "Use By" date for the gift of prophecy.]

What makes your prophet better than the prophets of the Watchtower or LDS? [This is a good question, but until you accept that the Bible teaches a continuity of the gift of prophecy then it is premature to engage this issue.]


Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

I'm pretty sure my previous post addressed the issue you raised based on Hebrews 1:1-2. If prophecy came to an end with the advent of Jesus then there would be no prophets/prophecy after Jesus. That's an ipso facto. For you to adjust your premise to now allow for prophets under the premise you set up is disingenuous. Either the gift of prophecy came to an end with the advent of Jesus or it didn't. The fact is it didn't.

Do you accept that Judas and Silas were prophets?

Acts 15:32
Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers.

I pray this helps.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Do you accept that Judas and Silas were prophets?

Acts 15:32
Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers.

I pray this helps.

Is there record of a fulfilled prophecy given by these men? Or, were they preaching the word of God?

"said much to encourage and strengthen the believers"

BTW, I am still awaiting an answer to my questions. Here's one of them. How is your prophet greater than the Watchtower or the LDS Prophets and Apostles?
 
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Icyspark

Active member
Is there record of a fulfilled prophecy given by these men? Or, were they preaching the word of God?

"said much to encourage and strengthen the believers"

BTW, I am still awaiting an answer to my questions. Here's one of them. How is your prophet greater than the Watchtower or the LDS Prophets and Apostles?


Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

Certainly prophesying is a part of being a prophet. However, prophets do more than just prophesy.

The same word (prophētēs) is used for identifying both Old Testament prophets (e.g. Samuel) and New Testament prophets (e.g. Judas and Silas). Their function is the same.


BTW, I am still awaiting an answer to my questions. Here's one of them. How is your prophet greater than the Watchtower or the LDS Prophets and Apostles?


I did address this in my previous post. It's embedded in the quote box. I said, "This is a good question, but until you accept that the Bible teaches a continuity of the gift of prophecy then it is premature to engage this issue." Let's see if you can first agree that the gift of prophecy is still in effect before we venture off onto a secondary issue. After all, if you've already rejected the gift of prophecy then nothing I say about any non biblical prophet will make any sense.

Do you believe in the gifts of the Spirit? Paul tells us we should "eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." Where do you find that Paul allows for this spiritual gift to come to an end? Iow, where's the "Use by" date?

I pray this helps.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

Certainly prophesying is a part of being a prophet. However, prophets do more than just prophesy.

The same word (prophētēs) is used for identifying both Old Testament prophets (e.g. Samuel) and New Testament prophets (e.g. Judas and Silas). Their function is the same.

I did address this in my previous post. It's embedded in the quote box. I said, "This is a good question, but until you accept that the Bible teaches a continuity of the gift of prophecy then it is premature to engage this issue." Let's see if you can first agree that the gift of prophecy is still in effect before we venture off onto a secondary issue. After all, if you've already rejected the gift of prophecy then nothing I say about any non biblical prophet will make any sense.

Do you believe in the gifts of the Spirit? Paul tells us we should "eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." Where do you find that Paul allows for this spiritual gift to come to an end? Iow, where's the "Use by" date?

I pray this helps.

Either you will discuss or not... Who is your present prophet? How is your primary prophet better than the Watchtower or LDS prophets?

IMHO, The office of the prophet changed after Christ and the Apostles...

You still have not answered how you handle Hebrews 1:1-2....

Quite honestly, so far, the SDA have ducked and have been less than willing to be open about what they believe... I have been upfront with how I understand prophets during the time of Christ and after the Apostles...

Christ was the last one to speak, including his Apostles, with authority and power... No one after that was given those special powers,,,
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
I see the SDA have their prophet. There are two questions that come to mind. How does the average Adventist deal with Hebrews 1:1-2? Why would we really need a prophet after the coming of Yashuah ha Maschiach, Jesus the Messiah? Does the average Adventist believe that we need to add scripture to the Bible?

How is your prophet better than the JW or LDS prophets?

Bump for a fearless honest SDA
 

Icyspark

Active member
Either you will discuss or not... Who is your present prophet? How is your primary prophet better than the Watchtower or LDS prophets?


Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

What in the world? It's like you're not listening or something.

Why would I want to address this issue when you are not yet settled on the fact that the Bible endorses a continuity in the gift of prophecy? If in your mind you have already concluded that the gift of prophecy cannot exist after the advent of Jesus (even though I've shown that it did), then what makes you think it would be beneficial to jump to dialoging about contemporary prophets whom you have already predetermined to be false?

I would love to answer your questions, but can we first acknowledge what the Bible teaches about the continuity of the spiritual gift of prophecy?

I will say this though. SDAs are not like Mormons (or Catholics) in their idea of having an unbroken chain of prophets. That's not a biblical concept.


IMHO, The office of the prophet changed after Christ and the Apostles...


Your opinion matters not if it's not based upon the word of God. The fact is the word of God doesn't correlate with your opinion.


You still have not answered how you handle Hebrews 1:1-2.... [I handle it using 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 and 14:1]


I'm not sure why this isn't sinking in for you. What I said previously in response to this was: "If prophecy came to an end with the advent of Jesus then there would be no prophets/prophecy after Jesus. That's an ipso facto. For you to adjust your premise to now allow for prophets under the premise you set up is disingenuous. Either the gift of prophecy came to an end with the advent of Jesus or it didn't. The fact is it didn't."

You've adjusted your premise to allow for prophets in a New Testament construct. But above you are attempting to mitigate the impact of your adjustment by claiming (sans any biblical evidence) that "the office of the prophet changed after Christ and the Apostles." Let's see the evidence for this assertion. Any evidence.

In 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 Paul writes, "God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second PROPHETS, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts." God has placed PROPHETS "in the church." That goes totally contrary to your reductionist philosophy.

Paul says to eagerly desire the greater gifts. What are his top three? The second gift is "Prophets." Based on what biblical text(s) do you get to countermand Paul's admonition to desire the greater gifts? There is nothing biblically for you to point to in order to overturn this obvious imperative. So far all I'm seeing from you is a baseless assertion that "the office of the prophet changed after Christ and the Apostles." Nice touch adding the apostles into your revised position. ;)

In 1 Corinthians 14:1 Paul goes on to say, "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." Again, how are you going to eagerly desire a gift which immediately came to an end? That's absurd. If you believe that any of the gifts of the Spirit remain, then logically you should not divest yourself of any of the others--"especially prophecy"!


Quite honestly, so far, the SDA have ducked and have been less than willing to be open about what they believe... I have been upfront with how I understand prophets during the time of Christ and after the Apostles... [Again, nice touch adjusting your position to include the time of the apostles. A rigid reading of Hebrews 1:1-2 would not allow you to do this. If you were "honestly" handling this issue would you not frankly admit you overplayed this text?]


I don't know how "honest" this is since you've been dancing around my responses to the issues you've raised and acting like your question hasn't been addressed. Your responses have been dismissive assertions based on what appears to be biased opinion. To claim anyone other than yourself is ducking is disingenuous.


Christ was the last one to speak, including his Apostles, with authority and power... No one after that was given those special powers,,,


It's really quite impressive how you can feel so empowered to make these sweeping statements without any sort of biblical support.

The apostles were not the only ones who attained the title of prophet. This too is a disingenuous assertion since I already noted two named prophets (Judas and Silas) who were not apostles. How about a third named prophet who also was not an apostle?

After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.

So, even though you've adjusted your position to include the apostles, it isn't enough cuz the examples I'm supplying are electrifying ⚡

I pray this helps.
 

Formersda

Active member
Hi Icy,

The verses you quote do not intimate continuous prophets who will give new revelation, that ended with the book of Revelation.

1st Corinthians 14:4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, the one who prophecies edifies the church. Verse 22 So then tongues are a sign, not to those who believe but unbelievers., but prophecy is a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

EGW cannot be used on unbelievers based on these passages and what the role of prophecy in the New Testament is.
God spoke through His son in these final days Hebrews 1:1-3, plus Revelation 22:18 and 19 is clear what Jesus will do with those who add or takeaway from that book.

The massive giving out of the great controversy book that Ted Wilson has commissioned again is against the New Testament biblical principles of prophecy.

And when a ”prophet” does come we are to test that prophet using the bible.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Why would I want to address this issue when you are not yet settled on the fact that the Bible endorses a continuity in the gift of prophecy? If in your mind you have already concluded that the gift of prophecy cannot exist after the advent of Jesus (even though I've shown that it did), then what makes you think it would be beneficial to jump to dialoging about contemporary prophets whom you have already predetermined to be false?

Again, you are not listening. The Prophet changed outside of Christ and the Apostles. They no longer prophesy future events.

I would love to answer your questions, but can we first acknowledge what the Bible teaches about the continuity of the spiritual gift of prophecy?

You haven't demonstrated the continuity of power of the OT Prophets to the Prophets post Apostles.

In 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 Paul writes, "God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second PROPHETS, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts." God has placed PROPHETS "in the church." That goes totally contrary to your reductionist philosophy.

Paul says to eagerly desire the greater gifts. What are his top three? The second gift is "Prophets." Based on what biblical text(s) do you get to countermand Paul's admonition to desire the greater gifts? There is nothing biblically for you to point to in order to overturn this obvious imperative. So far all I'm seeing from you is a baseless assertion that "the office of the prophet changed after Christ and the Apostles." Nice touch adding the apostles into your revised position. ;)

In 1 Corinthians 14:1 Paul goes on to say, "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." Again, how are you going to eagerly desire a gift which immediately came to an end? That's absurd. If you believe that any of the gifts of the Spirit remain, then logically you should not divest yourself of any of the others--"especially prophecy"!

Do you speak in Tongues? Does anyone in your church speak in tongues? Is there an interpreter? How about gifts of healing? Who are your healers? Who does miracles in your Church or Denomination? Do you have evidence for any of these questions if you answer YES to any of them?

The apostles were not the only ones who attained the title of prophet. This too is a disingenuous assertion since I already noted two named prophets (Judas and Silas) who were not apostles. How about a third named prophet who also was not an apostle?

After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.

So, even though you've adjusted your position to include the apostles, it isn't enough cuz the examples I'm supplying are electrifying ⚡

I pray this helps.

Could you point me to the Book of Agabus? Book of Silas? Book of Judas?

Best Regards,

YP
 

Icyspark

Active member
Again, you are not listening. The Prophet changed outside of Christ and the Apostles. They no longer prophesy future events. [Zero appeal to Scripture. Personal opinion]


Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

What I'm hearing you say is that you place more value on your own opinion than you do on what the Bible says. ✅


You haven't demonstrated the continuity of power of the OT Prophets to the Prophets post Apostles.


Actually I did. I supplied Scripture. You have dismissed Scripture in favor of your personal opinion. ✅


Do you speak in Tongues? Does anyone in your church speak in tongues? Is there an interpreter? How about gifts of healing? Who are your healers? Who does miracles in your Church or Denomination? Do you have evidence for any of these questions if you answer YES to any of them? [Zero appeal to Scripture. Personal opinion]


In the Bible there was what we now call the intertestamental period. It was a time of about 400 years between what we call the Old and New Testaments. During that time there were no prophets or prophesying. Based on your appeal to silence this 400 year period of silence would preclude your acceptance of Jesus or any of His apostles. ✅

The spiritual gifts listed by Paul are not distributed to anybody and everybody. You may "eagerly desire spiritual gifts" but that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit will supply your desire. Paul asks a number of rhetorical questions, "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" The implied answer is no, all are not apostles; no, all are not prophets; no, all are not teachers; no, all do not work miracles, etc. For you your response is to be dismissive of the gifts Paul says to eagerly desire. Based on Paul's writings, please show me any text where he indicates that this desire should ever come to an end? You can't. Therefore here we are in the land of speculation and conjecture. Relying solely on personal opinion and not on the word of God. ✅


Could you point me to the Book of Agabus? Book of Silas? Book of Judas? [Zero appeal to Scripture. Personal opinion]


Here's more speculation and conjecture. On what basis are you dismissing the above mentioned prophets? Is there a Bible verse that says, "All prophets must have written a book which will someday, many years after they're dead, be included in what will later be known as the canon of Scripture.

If you were being honest with your questions and were not deploying them as a distraction technique it would be much more beneficial for you. The fact is that there are prophets in the Bible whose writings are not included in Scripture (e.g. the book of Gad; the book of Jasher; the book of Nathan). On what biblical basis do you determine that having a book somehow authenticates any prophet's gift? Do you not see how far out you're reaching in order to maintain a flawed belief system?

Here's a question for you. Who does Jesus say was "a prophet and more than a prophet" and how many books of his are in the Bible? Based on the imposed premise above one would have to reject that individual as a prophet and in the process they must cancel Jesus and His words in order to elevate their own. ❌

Study first before being so adamant on a position which is untenable.

I pray this helps.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Study first before being so adamant on a position which is untenable.

I pray this helps.

Howdy Again,

Let's start with scripture... Your wish was my command...

1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Capital Letters for emphasis, not yelling...

Long ago ... God spoke to our fathers by the prophets... How did God communicate to "our Fathers"? Through the Prophets...
BUT, IN THE LAST DAYS HE HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON... How did God speak to us in the last days? BY HIS SON...

That means, he stopped speaking to us through Prophets... BUT ... BY HIS SON...

Best Regards...
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Isaiah 8:20​
To the law and to the testimony:​
if they speak not according to this word,​
it is because there is no light in them.​
Rev.14:1​
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,​
and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,​
having his Father's name written in their foreheads.​
..​
Here is the patience of the saints:​
here are they that keep the commandments of God,​
and the faith of Jesus.​
Rev.19:10​
And I fell at his feet to worship him.​
And he said unto me,​
See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant,​
and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:​

the law and to the testimony:

worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.​
 

Icyspark

Active member
Howdy Again,

Let's start with scripture... Your wish was my command...

1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Capital Letters for emphasis, not yelling...

Long ago ... God spoke to our fathers by the prophets... How did God communicate to "our Fathers"? Through the Prophets...
BUT, IN THE LAST DAYS HE HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON... How did God speak to us in the last days? BY HIS SON...

That means, he stopped speaking to us through Prophets... BUT ... BY HIS SON...

Best Regards...


Trolling 🥱
 
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