SDA misapplication of Scripture about the soul's natural immortality

pythons

Member
This specific misapplication of Scripture is found in theologically "Arian" or "Semi-Arian" sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, etc.

In the case of Seventh-day Adventism the inception of this idea is articulated by Ellen White.

Ellen White
"The only one who promised Adam life in disobedience was the great deceiver. And the declaration of the serpent to Eve in Eden—“Ye shall not surely die”—was the first sermon ever preached upon the immortality of the soul. Yet this declaration, resting solely upon the authority of Satan, is echoed from the pulpits of Christendom and is received by the majority of mankind as readily as it was received by our first parents. The divine sentence, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20), is made to mean: The soul that sinneth, it shall not die, but live eternally. We cannot but wonder at the strange infatuation which renders men so credulous concerning the words of Satan and so unbelieving in regard to the words of God."

Prior to commenting on this one should ponder that at the time Ellen wrote this the SDA Church was an anti-Trinitarian Cult....
....That additionally preached that anyone who denied that Father God had digestive organs was LOST.
....This should be considered prior to formulating an opinion as to "the truth" coming from SDA Pulpits at that time.

A common Adventist tactic in rejecting the natural immortality of the soul is twisting Scripture...
...They will quote a section of Scripture that appears to support their position but on closer inspection.
...It usually proves the direct opposite of what they claim the meaning of the text is.

Take Job 14, 18-21 for instance.
But the mountain falls and crumbles away, and the rock is removed from its place; the waters wear away the stones; the torrents wash away the soil of the earth; so thou destroyest the hope of man. Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passes; thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not."

Sounds from this like the SDA's might be onto something as the text says in speaking of man - that he dies and even though his sons come to honor him HE DOES NOT KNOW IT. This "proof text" the SDA's love to use finishes off by saying that the man's son's then die and he doesn't perceive it.

The SDA's intentionally cut the last part of this Scripture off because it proves the direct opposite of what they said it does. It becomes easy to see why when one looks at Job 14 Verse 22:

"He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.”

One can see the misapplication of Scripture here by the groups that are grounded by Arianism. They ignore the context of the Scripture by pretending a dead man CAN'T feel pain and is isn't conscious enough to "mourn for himself" - while dead! They somehow do this while omitting the Verse that says this is exactly what happens.

I look forward to reviewing other texts with my SDA Friends.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings pythons,
This specific misapplication of Scripture is found in theologically "Arian" or "Semi-Arian" sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, etc.
I am interested in this subject, as I believe that man is mortal and does not have an immortal soul. As I am not a SDA I will not answer all of your post or defend EGW. Please consider the Scripture mentioned at the start of your post, and the following also reveals some of the context.
Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV): 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:2–4 (KJV): 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Now you have quoted what EGW states concerning what the serpent stated, but you have not given your assessment of what this passage teaches. I would like to suggest that after they had sinned, Adam was told what was to be the punishment for his sin:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I suggest that the portion underlined above details what sort of death Adam was to experience, and note there is no mention of an immortal soul. Please note that it does not say: “till thy body returns to the ground and your immortal soul goes to heaven or hell”. Neither does it say: “for dust is thy body, but you have an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell”. No, Adam was going to return to the ground, and Adam was composed of dust, and Adam was going to return to the dust.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Member
Greetings pythons,

I am interested in this subject, as I believe that man is mortal and does not have an immortal soul. As I am not a SDA I will not answer all of your post or defend EGW. Please consider the Scripture mentioned at the start of your post, and the following also reveals some of the context.
Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV): 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:2–4 (KJV): 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Now you have quoted what EGW states concerning what the serpent stated, but you have not given your assessment of what this passage teaches. I would like to suggest that after they had sinned, Adam was told what was to be the punishment for his sin:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I suggest that the portion underlined above details what sort of death Adam was to experience, and note there is no mention of an immortal soul. Please note that it does not say: “till thy body returns to the ground and your immortal soul goes to heaven or hell”. Neither does it say: “for dust is thy body, but you have an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell”. No, Adam was going to return to the ground, and Adam was composed of dust, and Adam was going to return to the dust.

Kind regards
Trevor

Are you Adventist? You're not SDA but are you Adventist? A member of any Church or group listed in the current handbook of denominations under the Adventist umbrella ( Christadelphian, Jehovah's Witness, WWCOG

The Historic Christian Church teaches, as does Judaism, that when an individual dies the person dies. God did not intend for Adam and Eve to die so death is un-natural and outside of God's original plan.

My assessment is that our 1st parents transgressed what God told them to do / not do and they were expelled from the perfect area God created for them to perpetually live in. In other words Adam and Eve were intended to live in "God's Rest" AKA the 7th day, the 7th day being perpetually God's Rest (perfection) that man was created and intended to live in.

In any even Christians use the New Testament to illuminate and more fully understand the Old Testament - they don't use the Old Testament as if it explains the New.

Comparing Job Chapter14 to Philippines Chapter 2.

The most compelling and blunt teaching against soul sleeping and against the notion that the soul is unconscious after death of the body comes from Jesus Himself when the Sadducees pressed Him about who's wife the woman would be to the 7 brothers who all were married to her.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Take Job 14, 18-21 for instance.
But the mountain falls and crumbles away, and the rock is removed from its place; the waters wear away the stones; the torrents wash away the soil of the earth; so thou destroyest the hope of man. Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passes; thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not."
Sounds from this like the SDA's might be onto something as the text says in speaking of man - that he dies and even though his sons come to honor him HE DOES NOT KNOW IT. This "proof text" the SDA's love to use finishes off by saying that the man's son's then die and he doesn't perceive it.
The SDA's intentionally cut the last part of this Scripture off because it proves the direct opposite of what they said it does. It becomes easy to see why when one looks at Job 14 Verse 22:
"He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.”
I look forward to reviewing other texts with my SDA Friends.
So you want to apologetically discuss "only then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Formersda

Member
Greetings pythons,

I am interested in this subject, as I believe that man is mortal and does not have an immortal soul. As I am not a SDA I will not answer all of your post or defend EGW. Please consider the Scripture mentioned at the start of your post, and the following also reveals some of the context.
Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV): 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:2–4 (KJV): 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Now you have quoted what EGW states concerning what the serpent stated, but you have not given your assessment of what this passage teaches. I would like to suggest that after they had sinned, Adam was told what was to be the punishment for his sin:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I suggest that the portion underlined above details what sort of death Adam was to experience, and note there is no mention of an immortal soul. Please note that it does not say: “till thy body returns to the ground and your immortal soul goes to heaven or hell”. Neither does it say: “for dust is thy body, but you have an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell”. No, Adam was going to return to the ground, and Adam was composed of dust, and Adam was going to return to the dust.

Kind regards
Trevor
Hi Trevor,

Genesis 1:27, God created man out of His own image. God is Spirit Col 1:15, therefore the image here is not the physical image but the Spiritual image. Thus when Adam and Eve ate the apple their spirit died. Ephesians 2:1-3 before we are born again our spirits are dead according to the prince of the power of the air (Satan). Because of Adam and Eve our spirits are born dead.

It is only because of Jesus full atonement on the cross that one day that when we believe our spirits come alive. This is because the Spirit (Holy Spirit) testifies with our spirit that we are children of God Romans 8:16.

We all we have physical death that’s a given however if the Spirit dies when we physically die then when Jesus died the Godhead was separated. The bible is clear in fact Jesus talks about Abrahams bosom being the place that the righteous dead went spiritually. Jesus speaks truth.

Our physical body goes back to the dust but our spirit never dies.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again pythons and Greetings FormerSDA,
Are you Adventist? You're not SDA but are you Adventist? A member of any Church or group listed in the current handbook of denominations under the Adventist umbrella
Yes, I believe in the Second Advent of Jesus Acts 1:11, 3:19-21.
The Historic Christian Church teaches, as does Judaism, that when an individual dies the person dies. God did not intend for Adam and Eve to die so death is un-natural and outside of God's original plan.
The historic Christian Church and Judaism became corrupted by teaching outside the Bible, such as Greek philosophy, for example the teaching of Plato.
My assessment is that our 1st parents transgressed what God told them to do / not do and they were expelled from the perfect area God created for them to perpetually live in. In other words Adam and Eve were intended to live in "God's Rest" AKA the 7th day, the 7th day being perpetually God's Rest (perfection) that man was created and intended to live in.
I understand that Adam and Eve were under probation, and if faithful they would have been invited to eat of the tree of life and then live for ever.
In any even Christians use the New Testament to illuminate and more fully understand the Old Testament - they don't use the Old Testament as if it explains the New.
Perhaps if you read again Genesis 3:19 carefully, and as I explained, then you will start to appreciate that such major and important NT Scriptures as John 3:16, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23 and 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 teach the same, that man is mortal, not immortal, and Jesus will confer immortality to the faithful when he returns.
The most compelling and blunt teaching against soul sleeping and against the notion that the soul is unconscious after death of the body comes from Jesus Himself when the Sadducees pressed Him about who's wife the woman would be to the 7 brothers who all were married to her.
Yes, this is an important teaching, but contrary to your claim it teaches the future resurrection, not immortal souls.
Genesis 1:27, God created man out of His own image. God is Spirit Col 1:15, therefore the image here is not the physical image but the Spiritual image.
No, I believe that God invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in their physical and mental image and man was made a little lower than God and the Angels Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:4-6. The Spirit and breath return to God when man dies and does not perpetuate the thinking and character of the man as Adam himself returned to the dust, not only his body Genesis 3:19.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Formersda

Member
No, I believe that God invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in their physical and mental image and man was made a little lower than God and the Angels Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:4-6. The Spirit and breath return to God when man dies and does not perpetuate the thinking and character of the man as Adam himself returned to the dust, not only his body Genesis 3:19.
Hi there I’m interested on where the idea that God invited the angels to participate in the creation of man in both physical and mental imagE?
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again FormerSDA,
I’m interested on where the idea that God invited the angels to participate in the creation of man in both physical and mental imagE?
On reflection on why I believe this, then there are many layers. Firstly an answer is that many factors have contributed to the development of my detailed understanding on this, and not necessarily in the following sequence. I would put more weight on some of the following rather than others.
1. Reading, study and meditation on the Word.
2. An understanding of how the word "Elohim" usually translated "God" is translated, even mistranslated or poorly translated, and applied in various passages.
3. An assessment of the situation in the Garden of Eden, and my conclusion that the interaction between Adam and God in the Garden is that God is revealed through the presence and representation of the Angels, especially after Adam and Eve sinned. Thus the word "Elohim" usually translated God also includes the Angels as representatives in many passages. That the Angels are involved is reinforced by many other Theophanies, for example the Angel of Yahweh at the Burning Bush.
4. God specifically invites others in Genesis 1:26 to participate in the creation of man, using the terms "us" and "our", and to me the only valid possibility are the Angels.
5. When David in his creation Psalm, Psalm 8 summarises Genesis 1:26-27 he states that man was made a little lower than "Elohim" and I accept the KJV rendition "Angels" and the many modern Versions as "God" is incorrect. To me this proves that the plurality in Genesis 1:26-27 includes the Angels.
6. When the Angels appeared they were often at first mistaken for men, and hence their physical attributes are similar to man (no wings in my understanding).
7. Those who are resurrected and glorified will be equal to the Angels, and I consider that this will be in mind and body, and in support of this I believe in the resurrection of the body and the change from mortality to immortality. The resurrected body will be an actual physical body, and I believe that the Angels possess an actual physical body.

I could possibly give a few more clarifications, but this should be sufficient.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Member
TreverL,

1)
"ANY" Christian is an Adventist simply because any Christian believes and looks forward to the 2nd Coming or Advent of Christ.

2)
Job 14, 22 is explicit the dead feel discomfort & sorrow - this would be prior to Christ when that state was known as the Limbo of the Fathers. Additionally 2 Maccabees 15, 14 is also explicit that a very dead Onias and Jeremiah prayed on behalf of Israel prior to combat.

3)
I take your answer about Adam & Eve not eating the fruit from the tree of life that you agree with the Jewish understanding that Adam and Eve were created & transgressed God on the same day? If this is what you believe I take no issue with that as I believe the same thing.

4)
Of course "MAN" is mortal and no Orthodox teaching I know of says otherwise. That's why when Scripture speaks pertaining to this subject matter it says "the spirits OF just men", "fear not those who can kill the body BUT NOT THE SOUL", etc. Death is an "unnatural state" and as such contrary to the plan of God. Its NOT a good thing.

5)
No, Jesus was explicit in dealing with the Sadducees that 1) there IS a Resurrection of the body & 2) There are Angels & 3) Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. were aware.

I've already spoken to actual Jewish Scholars about this and the fact is that long prior to the Incarnation the Jews believed in an afterlife between the death of the body and the Resurrection of the body. The souls of these dead people were not at all understood to be unconscious.

6)
The way you answered question 1 gives me reason to ask if you believe Jesus is Eternal God? I would ask you if you believe in the Father, Son & Holy Spirit but a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness would easily assert they believe that. I'll phrase it differently by asking if you believe in God The Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit, the Triune God?
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again pythons,
1) "ANY" Christian is an Adventist simply because any Christian believes and looks forward to the 2nd Coming or Advent of Christ.
Most look forward to going to heaven when they die and have no real anticipation of the return of Jesus. Going to heaven and hell at death contradicts the concept of resurrection. My rural mate who is community minded states that the local Pastor sends them all to heaven at the funerals, the good and the bad (otherwise he would lose his fee). When we buried our close relative who had been a widow for 38 years, the inscription on both of their headstones was "In hope of the resurrection". They will awake together, and he will not know at first that 38 years transpired. Not sure who was also "accidentally" buried in the same grave sometime in that 38 years, he could have been a murdered criminal, or poor. They were always hospitable and will not complain.

3) I take your answer about Adam & Eve not eating the fruit from the tree of life that you agree with the Jewish understanding that Adam and Eve were created & transgressed God on the same day? If this is what you believe I take no issue with that as I believe the same thing.
I find no record of how long this was, but my opinion is that it was possibly a number of years.

4) Of course "MAN" is mortal and no Orthodox teaching I know of says otherwise.
I understand that the consciousness is located in the brain. Another relative had a stroke, and has lost some memory and some functions. If she had an immortal soul, how is it that she has lost some memory?

5) No, Jesus was explicit in dealing with the Sadducees that 1) there IS a Resurrection of the body & 2) There are Angels & 3) Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. were aware.
I understand that Jesus proves the resurrection, in that God is still associating Himself with Abraham who was dead, thus necessitating Abraham's resurrection.

I've already spoken to actual Jewish Scholars about this and the fact is that long prior to the Incarnation the Jews believed in an afterlife between the death of the body and the Resurrection of the body. The souls of these dead people were not at all understood to be unconscious.
Yes, I enjoyed Tevka's "dream" in the Fiddler on the Roof, but I do not accept this Jewish concept. I believe that the faithful dead sleep in the dust of the earth Daniel 12:2, Genesis 3:19, Isaiah 26:19 awaiting the resurrection

I'll phrase it differently by asking if you believe in God The Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit, the Triune God?
No, I believe in the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, a human, the full development of the Yahweh Name.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Member
TreverL said:
Most look forward to going to heaven when they die and have no real anticipation of the return of Jesus. Going to heaven and hell at death contradicts the concept of resurrection. My rural mate who is community minded states that the local Pastor sends them all to heaven at the funerals, the good and the bad (otherwise he would lose his fee). When we buried our close relative who had been a widow for 38 years, the inscription on both of their headstones was "In hope of the resurrection". They will awake together, and he will not know at first that 38 years transpired. Not sure who was also "accidentally" buried in the same grave sometime in that 38 years, he could have been a murdered criminal, or poor. They were always hospitable and will not complain.

According to Philippines 1,23 Paul said if he died he would immediately "be with Christ" AND that state was BETTER than remaining in the body. This isn't the language of conditional immortality and soul sleep.

TreverL said:
I understand that the consciousness is located in the brain. Another relative had a stroke, and has lost some memory and some functions. If she had an immortal soul, how is it that she has lost some memory?

Hebrews 11 & 12 describe the "spirits of" the just participating in a festive gathering, in heaven along with Christ & countless angels. What would unconscious spirits being doing at a festive gathering? There for humor and practical jokes?

TreverL said:
I understand that Jesus proves the resurrection, in that God is still associating Himself with Abraham who was dead, thus necessitating Abraham's resurrection.

You should read that Scripture again. The Sadducees never asked a question about the afterlife between death and the resurrection but Jesus answered it anyway & condemned the Sadducees rejection of the conscious spirit of man as ERROR.

TreverL said:
Yes, I enjoyed Tevka's "dream" in the Fiddler on the Roof, but I do not accept this Jewish concept. I believe that the faithful dead sleep in the dust of the earth Daniel 12:2, Genesis 3:19, Isaiah 26:19 awaiting the resurrection

So you don't really leverage anyone else's scholarship or experience other than the gnostic types that agree with you. The fact is that Judaism believes in a conscious afterlife between death and the resurrection of the body and they had this belief long BEFORE the Incarnation. Instead of correcting People's understanding of that common (and required) belief you see Jesus COMPOUNDING that belief.

I'm not sure what it is about Arianism or the belief that Jesus wasn't "God" that causes people to run so hard off the rails but I've seen it happen over and over again. Would I also be correct to assume that you would not eat foods described as unclean in the Book of Leviticus? I do appreciate you're willingness to be open about your beliefs TreverL. In closing how do you determine or gather that your views are right when compared to the Scholars who say it's not the way you say?
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again pythons,
According to Philippines 1,23 Paul said if he died he would immediately "be with Christ" AND that state was BETTER than remaining in the body. This isn't the language of conditional immortality and soul sleep.
Is this and the following examples how we need to readjust the clear OT teaching Genesis 3:19 and NT teaching John 3:16, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23 for that matter? Paul's next waking moment will be with Jesus at the resurrection. Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 what he anticipated would happen when he departed.
Hebrews 11 & 12 describe the "spirits of" the just participating in a festive gathering, in heaven along with Christ & countless angels. What would unconscious spirits being doing at a festive gathering? There for humor and practical jokes?
I suggest that this cloud of witnesses is figurative language. The scene is more like an Olympic Stadium.
You should read that Scripture again. The Sadducees never asked a question about the afterlife between death and the resurrection but Jesus answered it anyway & condemned the Sadducees rejection of the conscious spirit of man as ERROR.
I have considered this passage carefully and Jesus is speaking about the future resurrection of Abraham.
So you don't really leverage anyone else's scholarship or experience other than the gnostic types that agree with you.
I refer to the Bible first. You may be more familiar with gnosticism.
Instead of correcting People's understanding of that common (and required) belief you see Jesus COMPOUNDING that belief.
Jesus is speaking about the resurrection..
I'm not sure what it is about Arianism or the belief that Jesus wasn't "God" that causes people to run so hard off the rails but I've seen it happen over and over again.
I have a very thorough view concerning the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God. An Arian believes that Jesus pre-existed. I consider that Jesus was only conceived and born, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.
Would I also be correct to assume that you would not eat foods described as unclean in the Book of Leviticus?
I prefer lamb and beef over pork chops, though I was brought up eating bacon, but I definitely like prawns. What God has cleansed we should not call unclean. You are used to talking to SDAs who do not understand that the Law of Moses has been replaced by the New Covenant.
In closing how do you determine or gather that your views are right when compared to the Scholars who say it's not the way you say?
There are a large range of opinions and the majority are not always right. I respect genuine scholarship and I have a large range of books, print and electronic in my library. I have considered a wide range of opinions and hold fast to what I consider to be correct. This has been on larger subjects comparing my beliefs with various Protestants, but also fine tuning many beliefs within my own fellowship by discussion, listening and reading. In recent years I have been active on forums for 17 years.

I prefer reading those that believe in the inspiration of the Scriptures, and for example I believe in the unity of the Book of Isaiah, not two authors of Isaiah John 12:38-41 and many commentaries teach the error of two authors and almost two different messages. This is a good example of the few being correct.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Member
TreverL said:
Is this and the following examples how we need to readjust the clear OT teaching Genesis 3:19 and NT teaching John 3:16, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23 for that matter? Paul's next waking moment will be with Jesus at the resurrection. Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 what he anticipated would happen when he departed.

Clear OT teaching? Ecclesiastes 9,6 is explicitly clear one who dies WILL NEVER AGAIN "have a part in anything that happens under the sun". Why don't you reject the Resurrection of the Body given this "clear OT teaching"? Frankly, Jesus is just as clear as to the reality of a conscious spirit as He was the Resurrection "of the body".

TreverL said:
I suggest that this cloud of witnesses is figurative language. The scene is more like an Olympic Stadium.

Why of course you do, as you must also take Jesus' assertion that a ghost doesn't have flesh and bone, the kind of ghosts people who believe in ghosts might see walking around in the middle of the night. The point here is that Jews at Jesus time (excepting the Sadducees) believed in Spirits or ghosts, this includes Jesus' own disciples and when those same disciples mistook Jesus for a ghost - Jesus DIDN'T say;

'foolish disciples did you not read Genesis 3:19 & Eccl 9: 5 that the dead don't know anything and there is no such thing as ghosts or spirits, ya know the Sadducees are RIGHT.'

Instead, Jesus COMPOUNDED His Disciples believe in Spirits / Ghosts - does that mesh with how Jesus operated?

Learn about the Sadducees, what Scripture & history said they DIDN'T believe in and contrast that with what the Pharisees believed in and what Jesus explicitly said about the Pharisees religious teaching authority. After you do that simply read again about the interaction Jesus had with the Sadducees in the Gospels - the truth of this will literally jump off the pages of the Bible and smack ya in da melon.

TreverL said:
I have considered this passage carefully and Jesus is speaking about the future resurrection of Abraham.

IF Abraham is alive to God and Dead to those of us presently alive on earth it lines up exactly with prior to the cross (Job 14, 15) and after the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus when death changed - Hebrews 12, 2

TreverL said:
I have a very thorough view concerning the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God. An Arian believes that Jesus pre-existed. I consider that Jesus was only conceived and born, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

An Arian believes that Jesus wasn't / isn't eternal God & also believes Jesus could have sinned and lost His salvation. You are more akin to a Gnostic. Interesting.

Is there a denomination or group of like minded individuals that you believe lines up with your understanding better than other groups?

I would have lost money on your answer to the question on the Old Testament food laws. In every case those who believe New Testament Christians shouldn't eat pork or certain types of Seafood ALL either believe Jesus isn't God or that Jesus is an additional God to the Father, i.e. they are NOT Trinitarian. You'd be an outlier.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again pythons,
Frankly, Jesus is just as clear as to the reality of a conscious spirit as He was the Resurrection "of the body".
I will leave you to speculate about spirits and ghosts. The resurrection of Abraham is required for Abraham as he was promised the Land Genesis 13:14-15 and did not receive it during his life time. The resurrection of Jesus is taught in Psalm 16:9-11 and this is quoted by Peter in Acts 2 and Paul in Acts 13 to prove that Jesus rose from the dead. Psalm 110:1 is coupled with Psalm 16 by Peter to explain that after the death of Jesus and his resurrection he has been exalted to sit at the right hand of God, another verse that necessitated the resurrection.
Learn about the Sadducees, what Scripture & history said they DIDN'T believe in and contrast that with what the Pharisees believed in and what Jesus explicitly said about the Pharisees religious teaching authority.
I may not have a thorough understanding of the Sadducee teaching. I assess that they did not believe in the resurrection, and I have heard that they only referred to the fist five books of the Bible as authorative or inspired. They could have had the motto "God is the God of the living, not of the dead". If all of this is correct, Jesus used one of the most important verses in the Law, Exodus 3:6, the very start of God's salvation and deliverance of Israel, to prove the Sadducees wrong, on the basis of the fact that God still associates Himself with Abraham, thus necessitating the resurrection of Abraham. Instead of teaching that Abraham's ghost was somewhere, as the Jews did not believe in going to heaven, but possibly somewhere in Sheol, Jesus was teaching that God MUST raise Abraham from the dead. Jesus was teaching the resurrection and that Abraham was DEAD, but in effect that he was sleeping in the dust of the earth, waiting for the resurrection. He could have used their very own catchphrase to prove them wrong.
Is there a denomination or group of like minded individuals that you believe lines up with your understanding better than other groups?
Yes, I belong to the Christadelphian fellowship. We have had the same beliefs since 1847. Our major pioneer was associated with the Campbellites in the USA from 1832 and he became an editor of a magazine in 1834 and consolidated his understanding over a number of years until the differences between them necessitated a different fellowship. He remained an editor of a few magazines until 1860. The new fellowship was consolidated by Robert Roberts at Birmingham the editor of The Christadelphian magazine, 1864-1899, and this magazine has since had a number of editors to the present day.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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pythons

Member
TreverL said:
I will leave you to speculate about spirits and ghosts. The resurrection of Abraham is required for Abraham as he was promised the Land Genesis 13:14-15 and did not receive it during his life time. The resurrection of Jesus is taught in Psalm 16:9-11 and this is quoted by Peter in Acts 2 and Paul in Acts 13 to prove that Jesus rose from the dead. Psalm 110:1 is coupled with Psalm 16 by Peter to explain that after the death of Jesus and his resurrection he has been exalted to sit at the right hand of God, another verse that necessitated the resurrection.

I don't need to speculate about spirts & ghosts either because Scripture clarified it so well . Both secular and Jewish History record that Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, didn't believe in angels AND didn't believe in spirits while the Pharisees accepted them all. Scripture also testifies to what you see in secular and Jewish history.

Acts 23,6
But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead I am on trial.” And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

Knowing that the Sadducees didn't believe in the soul of man being conscious immediately after death and that also didn't believe in angels OR the resurrection provides us THE CONTEXT of the Gospel accounts where the Sadducees attempted to make a mockery of Christ by putting forth a crafted question about which one of 7 Brothers would claim the woman as wife at the resurrection because all brothers were married to her.

Read the following accounts: Matthew 22, 23-33 / Mark 12, 18-27 / & Luke 20, 27-40


The Sadducees ONLY asked Jesus about the resurrection yet Jesus confronts the 3 specific errors the Sadducees were known for.

Lets look at it in detail.

Matthew 22,23
The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies, having no children, his brother must marry the widow, and raise up children for his brother.’ Now there were seven brothers among us; the first married, and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother. So too the second and third, down to the seventh. After them all, the woman died. In the resurrection, therefore, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all had her.”

But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage [Resurrection Confirmed], but are like angels in heaven [angels confirmed]. And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

Mark 6, 48
And he saw that they were distressed in rowing, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out; for they all saw him, and were terrified.

Everyone in the boat though it was a ghost BECAUSE no one in the boat was a Sadducee! The fact is that the Jews at that time all believed the soul survived the death of the body and in some way was conscious - EXCEPT FOR THE SADDUCEES which Jesus explicitly corrected. God knows how to speak in past, future or present tense.

Jeremiah 31, 31
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord

Compare the above "WAS" their husband with the following.

"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Matthew 22, 32

"he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him." Luke 20, 38

God didn't tell Moses He 'was' the God of Abraham - God said "I AM THE GOD of Abraham".


This is something you simply can't dismiss.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again pythons,
The Sadducees ONLY asked Jesus about the resurrection yet Jesus confronts the 3 specific errors the Sadducees were known for.
Jesus answered them concerning the resurrection and the angels, but not immortal souls or ghosts.
God didn't tell Moses He 'was' the God of Abraham - God said "I AM THE GOD of Abraham". This is something you simply can't dismiss.
Yes, and this proves the necessity of his resurrection Hebrews 11:16, 13, 39-40. He is asleep in the dust of the earth Daniel 12:2.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Member
Greetings again pythons,

Jesus answered them concerning the resurrection and the angels, but not immortal souls or ghosts.

Yes, and this proves the necessity of his resurrection Hebrews 11:16, 13, 39-40. He is asleep in the dust of the earth Daniel 12:2.

Kind regards
Trevor

Read that again, God said He was (present tense) the God of Abraham...
...NOT that He was the God of Abraham.
...Also Jesus said ALL are alive to God.

You prefer to dwell in the shadowy understanding the Old Testament had of the afterlife...
...Instead of the brilliant teaching of the New Testament - you are welcome to do it that way.
...I'm guessing you would lack scholars or experts in the ancient languages and culture that would agree with you.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again pythons,
Read that again, God said He was (present tense) the God of Abraham... ...NOT that He was the God of Abraham. ...Also Jesus said ALL are alive to God.
While you continue to insist that it is talking about Abraham's immortal soul or spirit, I will insist that it is speaking about the necessity for the resurrection of Abraham. There is an interesting feature of the Scriptures and something similar which is called the prophetic past. I will quote a few examples:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

This part of Psalm 8 is applied by Paul to Jesus, but the tense is such that when David wrote it seems to be an accomplished fact, an event that had already happened.

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Again, when David wrote this, it appears to be an accomplished fact, but it is speaking of the exaltation of Jesus after his resurrection, again as is expounded in the NT.

Romans 4:16–17 (KJV): 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
This again is similar, but the principle is enunciated, that God speaks in the prophetic past, calling those things which be not as though they were. God IS the God of Abraham, therefore Abraham must be resurrected from the dead.

You prefer to dwell in the shadowy understanding the Old Testament had of the afterlife...
...Instead of the brilliant teaching of the New Testament - you are welcome to do it that way.
Once we understand how the many OT prophecies are fulfilled in Christ, then these prophecies are not shadowy, even as Jesus opened up the Scriptures to those on the way to Emmaus.

...I'm guessing you would lack scholars or experts in the ancient languages and culture that would agree with you.
I have a large library, and I am the librarian for our meeting, but I have not personally studied everything available. What I like as a librarian is being able to reference items when required. I am reasonably happy with the scholarship in my fellowship, including language skills. I have been in contact with a Hebrew scholar in our fellowship recently for him to help me on one aspect and I was more than satisfied. I am a technical person, having worked in a technical area, and my English, comprehension and language skills are poor. What level of scholarship and language skills have you attained to, and how do you decide when referring to various conflicting opinions from different authorities?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Member
TreverL, think about this for a minute. If your father had died 10 years ago and I walked up to you and said;

TreverL, I WAS your Father's friend.
Vs.
TreverL, I AM your Father's friend.

One statement indicates an existing PRESENT TENSE relationship...
...One statement indicates a prior relationship that has ceased.
...You're trying to say a present tense is actually a past tense.

I'm not buying that and I seriously doubt anyone else reading this is buying that either. I do however give you credit for believing in soul sleep so much that you'd push logic this hard off the cliff.
 
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