SDA misapplication of Scripture about the soul's natural immortality

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again pythons,
TreverL, think about this for a minute. If your father had died 10 years ago and I walked up to you and said; TreverL, I WAS your Father's friend. Vs. TreverL, I AM your Father's friend.
The real difference between yourself and God, is that God can raise the dead and he will raise Abraham. In the following quotation God speaks in the present tense: Romans 4:17 (KJV): God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Note Paul is speaking about Abraham. Paul is stating that God will quicken the dead, and only when Abraham is resurrected will Abraham be truly the father of many nations. Is this parallel to Exodus 3:6?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Active member
Greetings again pythons,

The real difference between yourself and God, is that God can raise the dead and he will raise Abraham. In the following quotation God speaks in the present tense: Romans 4:17 (KJV): God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Note Paul is speaking about Abraham. Paul is stating that God will quicken the dead, and only when Abraham is resurrected will Abraham be truly the father of many nations. Is this parallel to Exodus 3:6?

Kind regards
Trevor

Right, and if Abraham was ALIVE to God but dead to Moses when Moses was at the burning bush that should inform your decision on how you view death. The way I'm viewing it aligns with how the Old Testament describes the dead no longer taking a part in things under the sun yet still have enough consciousness to know they don't like being dead.

Christ CHANGED death - you simply can't compare the Book of Job and Eccl where death wasn't revealed like it is in the new Testament. Christ had many opportunities to correct the Pharisees on their belief that at death the soul went to another place and in some form was CONSCIOUS but Jesus didn't do that - if anything Jesus COMPOUNDED that teaching by saying the direct opposite.

Matthew 10,28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Something is either alive or dead and Jesus here is saying that its a persons BODY that's killed & NOT THE SOUL. A body is made of component parts and after a person dies the body breaks down into its component parts (just like the Bible says it does). A soul don't have component parts, there is nothing to "break down".

The Jewish concept of God never included that "we look like God" with arms legs, organs, etc. This is something that Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists believe but that pagan / heathen concept is and has always been Alien to Judaism. God is a simple undivided Spiritual Substance that is beyond our ability to even grasp, we can't explain it, it just is. God gave a Soul (spirit) to every person and by its nature (that God is only responsible for) it's naturally immortal. Jesus' teaching is that we should not fear man because they can only kill the body BUT NOT THE SOUL - like it or not this by itself proves that the soul is alive and well at the death of the body.
 

pythons

Active member
TreverL,

I want to publicly acknowledge something about your view on what happens after a person dies and what happens to folks that ultimately end up not saved. IT'S APPEALING - I would like for this to be true because there is some form of comfort in believing if I don't make the grade I'd become as if I never existed. That is a whale of a lot better than the alternative of "eternally" being conscious and in discomfort for either stupidity or weakness on my part. There is no doubt what you are selling is an attractive teaching - I just don't find support for it Scripture.

Just wanted to get that out here.
 
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TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Pythons,
Right, and if Abraham was ALIVE to God but dead to Moses when Moses was at the burning bush that should inform your decision on how you view death.
I am a bit confused as to what you are exactly saying here. One passage that I was prompted to reconsider by our discussion is:
Hebrews 11:8–16 (KJV): 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
There is much we could discuss here, and perhaps there are some aspects where we differ. I have underlined what I will mention. Abraham died and did not receive the promise of the Land, but he will be resurrected and inherit the Land. To me there is no hint that Abraham is alive and already entered into his inheritance of the Land. The other feature is that God is not ashamed to be called their God. I suggest that part of this is the declaration in Exodus 3:6 which Jesus quotes as proof of the resurrection. The word "ashamed" here is a figure of speech, emphasisng the opposite, that God takes great delight with Abraham, as does Jesus with his spiritual brethren / children Hebrews 2:11.

In my youth my Sunday School teacher constantly taught us concerning the promise of the Land to Abraham in Genesis 13:14-15, and he then followed this up by Galatians 3:8,16,26-29. Even in his Sunday evening talks he used to end them with these verses, so much so, when nearing the end of his talk he paused, and as I was almost drifting off as he was a dry speaker, one of my mates elbowed me and said about 10 seconds before the speaker, "now in conclusion, we will turn to Genesis 13:14-15. In my many years I have never forgotten this sequence, possibly more by the means of the elbow jab. But in a way this summarises our difference. I believe that Abraham is dead, awaiting the resurrection in order to inherit the Land. He does not have an immortal soul in heaven.

Matthew 10,28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Something is either alive or dead and Jesus here is saying that its a persons BODY that's killed & NOT THE SOUL. A body is made of component parts and after a person dies the body breaks down into its component parts (just like the Bible says it does). A soul don't have component parts, there is nothing to "break down".
By quoting this, you are opening up a bigger subject concerning the meaning of the word “soul” and how this word is used in the OT and the NT. I suggest that it does not represent an immaterial, immortal part of man which continues to exist after death and goes to heaven or hell at death. Please note in a similar passage to the one you quote, the same word is translated “soul” and “life”.
Mark 8:34–37 (KJV): 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Also the word “soul” is defined in the following account of the creation of man, and Paul relates this word to the natural or physical body when he speaks about the resurrection, rather than immortal souls.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1 Corinthians 15:42–45 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Jewish concept of God never included that "we look like God" with arms legs, organs, etc.
Whatever is the actual reality, we are nevertheless given the picture that God the Father is seated upon his throne, and Jesus the Son of God, a glorified human is now seated at his right hand. Also the Angels appeared and were mistaken for men at first.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

pythons

Active member
Greetings again Pythons,

I am a bit confused as to what you are exactly saying here. One passage that I was prompted to reconsider by our discussion is:
Hebrews 11:8–16 (KJV): 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
There is much we could discuss here, and perhaps there are some aspects where we differ. I have underlined what I will mention. Abraham died and did not receive the promise of the Land, but he will be resurrected and inherit the Land. To me there is no hint that Abraham is alive and already entered into his inheritance of the Land. The other feature is that God is not ashamed to be called their God. I suggest that part of this is the declaration in Exodus 3:6 which Jesus quotes as proof of the resurrection. The word "ashamed" here is a figure of speech, emphasisng the opposite, that God takes great delight with Abraham, as does Jesus with his spiritual brethren / children Hebrews 2:11.

In my youth my Sunday School teacher constantly taught us concerning the promise of the Land to Abraham in Genesis 13:14-15, and he then followed this up by Galatians 3:8,16,26-29. Even in his Sunday evening talks he used to end them with these verses, so much so, when nearing the end of his talk he paused, and as I was almost drifting off as he was a dry speaker, one of my mates elbowed me and said about 10 seconds before the speaker, "now in conclusion, we will turn to Genesis 13:14-15. In my many years I have never forgotten this sequence, possibly more by the means of the elbow jab. But in a way this summarises our difference. I believe that Abraham is dead, awaiting the resurrection in order to inherit the Land. He does not have an immortal soul in heaven.


By quoting this, you are opening up a bigger subject concerning the meaning of the word “soul” and how this word is used in the OT and the NT. I suggest that it does not represent an immaterial, immortal part of man which continues to exist after death and goes to heaven or hell at death. Please note in a similar passage to the one you quote, the same word is translated “soul” and “life”.
Mark 8:34–37 (KJV): 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Also the word “soul” is defined in the following account of the creation of man, and Paul relates this word to the natural or physical body when he speaks about the resurrection, rather than immortal souls.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1 Corinthians 15:42–45 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Whatever is the actual reality, we are nevertheless given the picture that God the Father is seated upon his throne, and Jesus the Son of God, a glorified human is now seated at his right hand. Also the Angels appeared and were mistaken for men at first.

Kind regards
Trevor

I obviously take issue with the notion that Jesus was / is "a glorified human". Ultimately, however, I respect your candor in admitting that your views / beliefs are incompatible with the Trinity Doctrine. I would say THAT is a better position to be in than claiming you are Trinitarian and then re-defining what the Trinity is and trying to pass your Church off as Evangelical.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Ro 3:4-6 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

How will you answer Paul's question, and/or objection ???
I want to publicly acknowledge something about your view on what happens after a person dies and what happens to folks that ultimately end up not saved. IT'S APPEALING - I would like for this to be true because there is some form of comfort in believing if I don't make the grade I'd become as if I never existed. That is a whale of a lot better than the alternative of "eternally" being conscious and in discomfort for either stupidity or weakness on my part. There is no doubt what you are selling is an attractive teaching - I just don't find support for it Scripture.
Just wanted to get that out here.
AV Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

I will believe GOD, before I believe what you post.

So is GOD a liar in these words ???

Or ... When does GOD's words become Truth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Matthew 10,28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Something is either alive or dead and Jesus here is saying that its a persons BODY that's killed & NOT THE SOUL. A body is made of component parts and after a person dies the body breaks down into its component parts (just like the Bible says it does). A soul don't have component parts, there is nothing to "break down".
The Jewish concept of God never included that "we look like God" with arms legs, organs, etc. This is something that Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists believe but that pagan / heathen concept is and has always been Alien to Judaism. God is a simple undivided Spiritual Substance that is beyond our ability to even grasp, we can't explain it, it just is. God gave a Soul (spirit) to every person and by its nature (that God is only responsible for) it's naturally immortal. Jesus' teaching is that we should not fear man because they can only kill the body BUT NOT THE SOUL - like it or not this by itself proves that the soul is alive and well at the death of the body.
AV Mt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

I find it interesting you still cling to the Jews words over Jesus' word in these discussions.

What is left to live, when "the power of God" does "destroy both soul and body in hell" ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
AV Mt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

I find it interesting you still cling to the Jews words over Jesus' word in these discussions.

What is left to live, when "the power of God" does "destroy both soul and body in hell" ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

Jesus was a Jew was He not? Paul was a Jew was He not?

Destroy does not mean annihilate and this is why Jesus used the word destroy.

You've heard it said that such and such "destroyed the economy" and that so and so destroyed someone's life....
....A son take his fathers car out one night and "destroyed the car".

The economy, the person's life and the car are still there - it's the purpose they were intended for can't be reached now - because they were DESTROYED. The economy, person or car "DOESN'T BECAME AS IF THEY NEVER EXISTED". But this is the logic non- Trinitarian groups deploy in defense of soul sleeping.

Matthew 26, 24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

If what you said is true than Jesus wouldn't be making any sense there...
...Because if you're right Judas would be "as if he had never been born".
...In fact all who judged outside the Book of Life;

Will be as if they had never been born.
 

pythons

Active member
Prologue:
AV Ro 3:4-6 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

How will you answer Paul's question, and/or objection ???

AV Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

I will believe GOD, before I believe what you post.

So is GOD a liar in these words ???

Or ... When does GOD's words become Truth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

You think that after the General Judgement the wicked will be burned / reduced into ashes and the saved will come out of the Holy City and walk around with the ashes of the dead squishing up between their toes? Ok.
 

pythons

Active member
TreverL said:
I have a large library, and I am the librarian for our meeting, but I have not personally studied everything available. What I like as a librarian is being able to reference items when required. I am reasonably happy with the scholarship in my fellowship, including language skills. I have been in contact with a Hebrew scholar in our fellowship recently for him to help me on one aspect and I was more than satisfied. I am a technical person, having worked in a technical area, and my English, comprehension and language skills are poor. What level of scholarship and language skills have you attained to, and how do you decide when referring to various conflicting opinions from different authorities?

I have a fairly large theological Library myself with electronic access to more. I'm also a technical person. I try to let religious systems explain themselves and what I mean by that is I spend time reading what a religion says about itself Vs reading what someone else with an axe to grind says about it.

In the case of SDA's I spent several years in their archives researching the meaning behind certain terms = terms like "Personality Of God", I don't have to rely on what a scholar says about that term because I collected every case the term was used and know for certain what the term meant. In this way I can make my own arguments which don't sound like anyone else's because they are mine. I'm not a Jew but have talked to Rabbi's, read quite a bit of the Talmud. I've read the entire Koran and someday would like to read the Bhagavad Gita. I do read a lot. I'm NOT Clergy or have a Degree in Divinity or anything like that - I'm just a regular guy who's had an interest in religion and discussing it.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Ezk 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Destroy does not mean annihilate and this is why Jesus used the word destroy.
I did not interject "annihilate", into this conversation.

I feel you are projecting on me, something I had not said in context. But ...
In Christianity, annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is the belief that those who are wicked will perish or cease to exist. It states that after the final judgment, all unsaved human beings, all fallen angels (all of the damned) and Satan himself will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire).
I appreciate the connection in your mind to "In Christianity".

I do not think, we are not that far apart in the final results of the wicked though, just a bit of semantics.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
You think that after the General Judgement the wicked will be burned / reduced into ashes and the saved will come out of the Holy City and walk around with the ashes of the dead squishing up between their toes? Ok.
AV Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

So GOD had another conditional prophecy about this ???

AV Ps 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

Until we get there, I am going to give GOD a benefit of a doubt. It seems to me, "the wicked will be burned / reduced into ashes" in a relative small area while we watch. So their ashes, are not over the whole earth, just when we walk outside the city.

AV Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

New memories of the eventual and "utter end" of sin.

So you have evidence to believe otherwise ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Formersda

Active member
AV Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

So GOD had another conditional prophecy about this ???

AV Ps 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

Until we get there, I am going to give GOD a benefit of a doubt. It seems to me, "the wicked will be burned / reduced into ashes" in a relative small area while we watch. So their ashes, are not over the whole earth, just when we walk outside the city.

AV Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

New memories of the eventual and "utter end" of sin.

So you have evidence to believe otherwise ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown in to the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also (Rev 19:20 cross reference); and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone’s name is not found in the book of life, he is thrown into the lake of fire. (The same fire the beast, false prophet and the Devil is in)

Pretty clear evidence there.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings SDAchristian,
AV Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
So GOD had another conditional prophecy about this ???
AV Ps 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Until we get there, I am going to give GOD a benefit of a doubt. It seems to me, "the wicked will be burned / reduced into ashes" in a relative small area while we watch. So their ashes, are not over the whole earth, just when we walk outside the city.
Although agreeing with you concerning the ultimate death and destruction of the wicked, I find what you have quoted and stated difficult mainly on the ground of my assessment of SDA teaching as a whole. Perhaps you could clarify, as to when do you suggest that the faithful will tread down the wicked - at the beginning of the 1000 years or at the end of the 1000 years? My impression of SDA teaching is that they believe that the faithful will be taken to heaven at the beginning of the 1000 years and that at the same time the whole earth will be burned.

Perhaps to help clarify, it appears to be at the same time as the return of Jesus, "The Sun of Righteousness", and I understand this to be at the beginning of the 1000 years:
Malachi 4:1–3 (KJV): 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

It's easy to spot liars, when GOD talks. Or is anyone going to say Paul is wrong here ???

AV Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I find it interesting that GOD's words are needed to rebuke a devil's understanding. GOD knows how to judge, how many can anticipate that judgment, when we know GOD personally ???
AV Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown in to the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also (Rev 19:20 cross reference); and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone’s name is not found in the book of life, he is thrown into the lake of fire. (The same fire the beast, false prophet and the Devil is in)
Pretty clear evidence there.
Either you understand the context of Revelation 20 from GOD's perspective and meaning, or admit GOD lied about "ashes under the soles of your feet".

AV Ju 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I am still looking for pictures of a present day burning "Sodom and Gomorrha", per the understanding of some here ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Formersda

Active member
Prologue:
AV Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

It's easy to spot liars, when GOD talks. Or is anyone going to say Paul is wrong here ???

AV Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I find it interesting that GOD's words are needed to rebuke a devil's understanding. GOD knows how to judge, how many can anticipate that judgment, when we know GOD personally ???

Either you understand the context of Revelation 20 from GOD's perspective and meaning, or admit GOD lied about "ashes under the soles of your feet".

AV Ju 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I am still looking for pictures of a present day burning "Sodom and Gomorrha", per the understanding of some here ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Malachi 4:3 needs context, so Malachi 4 says

Final Admonition​

4 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

4 “Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

Micheal you can’t corner me with that question when you quote scripture out of context.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.
4 “Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.
5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

Micheal you can’t corner me with that question when you quote scripture out of context.
Think this through carefully then:

Are you saying, you will not be walking on the ashes of "the wicked" ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again SDAChristian,
Are you saying, you will not be walking on the ashes of "the wicked" ???
Does SDA theology also claim that the faithful will fulfill the rest of the verse "you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked," If so, will this be at the beginning of the 1000 years or at the end of the 1000 years?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
I was working on the rebuttal for your other post, when this one popped up. It is a longer rebuttal than this one, so I will answer this one now, and finish the other tomorrow. Some of this rebuttal, is Cut-N-Paste from the other rebuttal.
Does SDA theology also claim that the faithful will fulfill the rest of the verse "you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked," If so, will this be at the beginning of the 1000 years or at the end of the 1000 years?
AV Ezk 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
AV Re 20:1-2 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

If Satan survives the thousand years on earth, then coming to ashes is at the end of the thousand years. We(the redeemed) will be witnesses as promised of GOD.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Michael (SDAchristian),
coming to ashes is at the end of the thousand years
I appreciate the response, but I believe that Malachi 4 is speaking about what will happen at the beginning of the 1000 years. This is a bit off topic and possibly we could have a brief discussion in the future. I believe that Jesus will return to the earth Acts 1:11, 3:19-21, raise some of the dead Daniel 12:1-3 and reject the wicked and give immortality to the faithful. He will then establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years, ruling as King / Priest upon the Throne of David / Temple at Jerusalem and rule over the converted nation of natural Israel and with the nations subjected and learning God's ways Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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