Self Defeating Numbskullery

We all know that YHVH, under the Old Covenant, decreed that those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated

Living now, as we do, under the New Covenant, we fortunately live in an age wherein those representing a position at odds with His are allowed to exist

In fact, one might reasonably argue that this current arrangement does more to strengthen the conviction of the believer than could ever have been achieved in a time and place where those of faith were never, ever challenged

Imagine what it would be like if the God believers of today chose to silence the contrarians...

Thank God that nothing of the sort takes place around here
I can't conceive of anyone secure in their beliefs ever doing such a thing - can you?
 
We all know that YHVH, under the Old Covenant, decreed that those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated

Living now, as we do, under the New Covenant, we fortunately live in an age wherein those representing a position at odds with His are allowed to exist

In fact, one might reasonably argue that this current arrangement does more to strengthen the conviction of the believer than could ever have been achieved in a time and place where those of faith were never, ever challenged

Imagine what it would be like if the God believers of today chose to silence the contrarians...

Thank God that nothing of the sort takes place around here
I can't conceive of anyone secure in their beliefs ever doing such a thing - can you?
Are you saying that God changes his intentions? How then can we trust God? :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
We all know that YHVH, under the Old Covenant, decreed that those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated

Living now, as we do, under the New Covenant, we fortunately live in an age wherein those representing a position at odds with His are allowed to exist

In fact, one might reasonably argue that this current arrangement does more to strengthen the conviction of the believer than could ever have been achieved in a time and place where those of faith were never, ever challenged

Imagine what it would be like if the God believers of today chose to silence the contrarians...

Thank God that nothing of the sort takes place around here
I can't conceive of anyone secure in their beliefs ever doing such a thing - can you?
I don't think it's correct that under the Old Covenant, God decreed that all those representing a contrary position to His own be eliminated. After all, most of the world's population and even a fair few within Israel had quite a few positions contrary to God's - even some of His own monarchs at times!
 
Sorry, no such verse exists in the Bible. Only in your imagination.
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
"And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman"
 
I don't think it's correct that under the Old Covenant, God decreed that all those representing a contrary position to His own be eliminated. After all, most of the world's population and even a fair few within Israel had quite a few positions contrary to God's - even some of His own monarchs at times!
You snuck an "all" in there, Jonathan
I didn't say that "God decreed that ALL those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated"
I said simply that God "decreed that those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated"

That said, it's not really fair of you to suggest that my assertion is incorrect based upon God having never commanded His followers to scour the earth slaughtering each and every human being not recognizing YHVH as god

Do you deny that the OT is chock full of passages wherein God commands His followers to kill those unbelievers who are within the sphere of believers?
 
Are you saying that God changes his intentions? How then can we trust God? :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
That's not really what this OP is about, but yeah, God DOES change His intentions

However, of all the reasons not to place trust in Him - this one ranks pretty low on the list...
 

Mike McK

Active member
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
"And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman"
Note that nowhere in the passage does it say that God commanded this, and that the covenant was between themselves, not with God.

So, as usual, you've messed up again.
 
Note that nowhere in the passage does it say that God commanded this, and that the covenant was between themselves, not with God.

So, as usual, you've messed up again.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones"

War Eagle,

Note that God specifically commands His followers to murder innocent human beings for the so-called "crime" of not believing in Him and His covenant

Note, also, that such a command is evil and immoral

Note, too, that you, yourself, would never, ever murder someone simply because he/she does not share your faith in God
The reason you would never do so is because you know that such a thing is evil and immoral

Why then do you believe it is acceptable for God to act in an evil and immoral manner?
 
Note that nowhere in the passage does it say that God commanded this, and that the covenant was between themselves, not with God.

So, as usual, you've messed up again.
If true, then God is at fault for having failed to condemn the Jews who agreed among themselves to kill those failing to seek God

Then again, why would He?
As it is, God directly commands, in multiple places throughout scripture, that His followers kill those who do not believe in Him
 

Mike McK

Active member
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones"

I'm sorry, my illiterate friend, but the verse you chose to take out of context this time doesn't say they were killed for "not believing in Him and His covenant", but for "doing evil", "transgressing His covenant", "served other gods" ,and broken God's laws.

I'm not sure if you're being dumb or just dishonest, but it only makes you look foolish to quote a verse and then claim the verse you just quoted doesn't say what you claim it says.
Note, also, that such a command is evil and immoral

Note, too, that you, yourself, would never, ever murder someone simply because he/she does not share your faith in God
The reason you would never do so is because you know that such a thing is evil and immoral

Why then do you believe it is acceptable for God to act in an evil and immoral manner?

Deuteronomy 17:2-5
“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones"
The passage you chose to take out of context this time doesn't say they were killed for "not believing in Him and His covenant", but for "doing evil", "transgressing His covenant", "[serving] other gods",and braking God's laws.

Note that God specifically commands His followers to murder innocent human beings for the so-called "crime" of not believing in Him and His covenant
Only in your imagination. The verse doesn't say to kill innocent people, but lists a host of offenses one must have committed in order to be put to death.

Once again, you need a dictionary and an adult.
Why then do you believe it is acceptable for God to act in an evil and immoral manner?
I don't accept your moronic claim that God did such a thing.
 

Mike McK

Active member
If true, then God is at fault for having failed to condemn the Jews who agreed among themselves to kill those failing to seek God
So you claim. The text doesn't support your latest idiotic claim.


As it is, God directly commands, in multiple places throughout scripture, that His followers kill those who do not believe in Him
Then why not show us those places? You say it's found in "multiple places" and yet, the first passage you showed us said that it was Asa who orchestrated the killing, not God, and the second passage said that they weren't "innocent" people killed merely for "not believing in God", but for a list of sins against God.

So far, about the only thing you've proven is the truth of Psalms 14:1.
 
I'm sorry, my illiterate friend, but the verse you chose to take out of context this time doesn't say they were killed for "not believing in Him and His covenant", but for "doing evil", "transgressing His covenant", "served other gods" ,and broken God's laws.

I'm not sure if you're being dumb or just dishonest, but it only makes you look foolish to quote a verse and then claim the verse you just quoted doesn't say what you claim it says.



The passage you chose to take out of context this time doesn't say they were killed for "not believing in Him and His covenant", but for "doing evil", "transgressing His covenant", "[serving] other gods",and braking God's laws.


Only in your imagination. The verse doesn't say to kill innocent people, but lists a host of offenses one must have committed in order to be put to death.

Once again, you need a dictionary and an adult.

I don't accept your moronic claim that God did such a thing.
Either the bible is the word of God or it isn't
Either the bible reflects God and His will or it doesn't

God is the one standing behind the command to kill unbelievers - whether it is He directly issuing the command or Asa

Transgressing His covenant and / or serving other gods is what an unbeliever does
It is God, in His less than infinite wisdom, that categorizes such a thing as "doing evil"

He decides what qualifies as "braking" {sic} His laws and being an unbeliever IS what qualifies, in His eyes, as a breaking of the law



You don't accept that God acted in an evil and immoral fashion when He supported and / or commanded that unbelievers be put to death?

Then I trust that you will have no problem admitting here and now that it would be perfectly moral for you to kill me on the basis of my not believing in God

Go ahead, tell everyone on CARM that it is good and moral that Treeplanter be killed for the "crime" of not being a Christian
 

Mike McK

Active member
Either the bible is the word of God or it isn't
It is.
Either the bible reflects God and His will or it doesn't
Not always.
God is the one standing behind the command to kill unbelievers - whether it is He directly issuing the command or Asa
The text literally says it was Asa, not God.
Transgressing His covenant and / or serving other gods is what an unbeliever does
Yep.
It is God, in His less than infinite wisdom, that categorizes such a thing as "doing evil"
So, you're cool with child sacrifices?

You don't accept that God acted in an evil and immoral fashion when He supported and / or commanded that unbelievers be put to death?

I don't accept either one.
Then I trust that you will have no problem admitting here and now that it would be perfectly moral for you to kill me on the basis of my not believing in God

And, this is the part where we see that it's time to invoke Proverbs 26:4.

You're dismissed.
 
That's not really what this OP is about, but yeah, God DOES change His intentions

However, of all the reasons not to place trust in Him - this one ranks pretty low on the list...
Is God changing his intentions a condensation for the way that humans see God because God is dealing with humans that go through process and change. God does not go through change does he? :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

SteveB

Well-known member
We all know that YHVH, under the Old Covenant, decreed that those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated

Living now, as we do, under the New Covenant, we fortunately live in an age wherein those representing a position at odds with His are allowed to exist

In fact, one might reasonably argue that this current arrangement does more to strengthen the conviction of the believer than could ever have been achieved in a time and place where those of faith were never, ever challenged

Imagine what it would be like if the God believers of today chose to silence the contrarians...

Thank God that nothing of the sort takes place around here
I can't conceive of anyone secure in their beliefs ever doing such a thing - can you?
This must absolutely terrify you to realize that YHVH is going to judge the sin of the human race and nothing you can do will prevent this judgment from taking place.

You can however escape that judgment due sin by turning to God from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

You can further assist others in escaping the judgment due their sin by proclaiming the gospel of Jesus and repentance towards God and trust in Jesus.

Each however must make their own choice.

As it is written,

The coming judgment due sin is for yet a time appointed.

You won't delay it. You won't stop it. You could indeed gather the entire human race to fight against God, and you will only ensure your condemnation.

Repent and believe the gospel.
 

Nouveau

Active member
This must absolutely terrify you to realize that YHVH is going to judge the sin of the human race and nothing you can do will prevent this judgment from taking place.
Rational people don't fear things they consider fictional.

You can however escape that judgment due sin by turning to God from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ. You can further assist others in escaping the judgment due their sin by proclaiming the gospel of Jesus and repentance towards God and trust in Jesus.
Rational people also cannot place their trust in someone they have no reason to think is real.

Each however must make their own choice.

As it is written,

The coming judgment due sin is for yet a time appointed.

You won't delay it. You won't stop it. You could indeed gather the entire human race to fight against God, and you will only ensure your condemnation.

Repent and believe the gospel.
You're preaching again. It's not effective.
 
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