Self Defeating Numbskullery

SteveB

Well-known member
Rational people don't fear things they consider fictional.
neither do people who think they know better, but truly are genuinely choosing to ignore truth they don't want to know.

It's ironic that I never feared sticking a fork in a live electrical socket as a child.

Nor did the electricians who were convinced they turned off the power to the 477V circuit they were going to work on.

Nor did the welder who believed that the gas was shut off on the pipeline he was assigned to repair.

They're all dead now.

Thankfully, my dad got my attention before I got the fork into the outlet.

Rational people also cannot place their trust in someone they have no reason to think is real.

Neither did those welders, electricians, and numerous others who were convinced that they had followed the instructions given to them to safely perform their jobs.

What I find so utterly curious is that there's an entire industry that exists explicitly because of those hundreds, indeed thousands of people who have died because they didn't do what they were instructed, and indeed quite familiar with.

So..... yeah..... you keep claiming that one.

You're preaching again. It's not effective.
You seem to think that your judgment on the effectiveness is a concern for me.

My job is to simply be faithful.

You job is to decide whether you want to live or die.

Eternity is still a long time to be wrong.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
neither do people who think they know better, but truly are genuinely choosing to ignore truth they don't want to know.
It's ironic that I never feared sticking a fork in a live electrical socket as a child.
Nor did the electricians who were convinced they turned off the power to the 477V circuit they were going to work on.
Nor did the welder who believed that the gas was shut off on the pipeline he was assigned to repair.
They're all dead now.
Thankfully, my dad got my attention before I got the fork into the outlet.

Neither did those welders, electricians, and numerous others who were convinced that they had followed the instructions given to them to safely perform their jobs.
What I find so utterly curious is that there's an entire industry that exists explicitly because of those hundreds, indeed thousands of people who have died because they didn't do what they were instructed, and indeed quite familiar with.
So..... yeah..... you keep claiming that one.
When you can actually provide evidence for your claims equivalent to that we have for the dangers of electricity and gas, then get back to us. Until then, you need to learn that we are not children who will accept your nonsense out of blind trust.

You seem to think that your judgment on the effectiveness is a concern for me.
My job is to simply be faithful.
You job is to decide whether you want to live or die.
Eternity is still a long time to be wrong.
And a finite life is a short thing to waste on ineffective preaching.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
When you can actually provide evidence for your claims equivalent to that we have for the dangers of electricity and gas, then get back to us. Until then, you need to learn that we are not children who will accept your nonsense out of blind trust.
History has bourn witness to the truth of the bible and Jesus.


And a finite life is a short thing to waste on ineffective preaching.
Then you'll find out when you die.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If you think so, then that is what you should be arguing - with evidence instead of preaching.


Or not.
It's not an argument.
You've been provided a great list of books to read.

If you're not going to read them, then that's your problem.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
You snuck an "all" in there, Jonathan
I didn't say that "God decreed that ALL those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated"
I said simply that God "decreed that those representing a position contrary to His own be eliminated"

That said, it's not really fair of you to suggest that my assertion is incorrect based upon God having never commanded His followers to scour the earth slaughtering each and every human being not recognizing YHVH as god

Do you deny that the OT is chock full of passages wherein God commands His followers to kill those unbelievers who are within the sphere of believers?
Can you quote some scriptural passages to support this claim? Sorry for putting the "all" in there but I thought that was the natural assumption of your point.

I think it depends on the period. It's true to some extent with the conquest of Canaan but rarely the case outside of that. For instance, the early Israelite kings had people working for them who weren't Jews.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
It's not an argument.
You've been provided a great list of books to read.

If you're not going to read them, then that's your problem.
If you're not going to argue in support of your claims, then don't be surprised when no-one takes them seriously.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
It is.

Not always.

The text literally says it was Asa, not God.

Yep.

So, you're cool with child sacrifices?



I don't accept either one.


And, this is the part where we see that it's time to invoke Proverbs 26:4.

You're dismissed.
What?
The bible is the word of God, but it doesn't always reflect His will??

Sorta like the MLB Rules Handbook lays out the rules of Major League Baseball, but doesn't always reflect the rules of Major League Baseball???

An idiotic assertion if ever I heard one...

Me cool with child sacrifice?
No
Child sacrifice is evil
Not believing in YHVH, however, is NOT evil

Like it or not, God did things and commanded things that you know in your heart to be evil

He supported slavery
He drowned innocent babies
He commanded the murder of unbelievers
Etc
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
This must absolutely terrify you to realize that YHVH is going to judge the sin of the human race and nothing you can do will prevent this judgment from taking place.

You can however escape that judgment due sin by turning to God from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

You can further assist others in escaping the judgment due their sin by proclaiming the gospel of Jesus and repentance towards God and trust in Jesus.

Each however must make their own choice.

As it is written,

The coming judgment due sin is for yet a time appointed.

You won't delay it. You won't stop it. You could indeed gather the entire human race to fight against God, and you will only ensure your condemnation.

Repent and believe the gospel.
No, Steve
I don't believe that YHVH exists
I am no more "terrified" of His judgement than I am of Zeus' judgement

Not only that, but you fundamentally misunderstand my basic position...
I welcome judgement
It is YOU, the Christian, who has NO concept of responsibility

I own my actions
You shove your actions off onto another

I live and die by my actions
You live and die by a fairy tale character that accepts consequence for your actions
 

SeventhDay

Active member
No, Steve
I don't believe that YHVH exists
I am no more "terrified" of His judgement than I am of Zeus' judgement

Not only that, but you fundamentally misunderstand my basic position...
I welcome judgement
It is YOU, the Christian, who has NO concept of responsibility

I own my actions
You shove your actions off onto another

I live and die by my actions
You live and die by a fairy tale character that accepts consequence for your actions
Ignorance is the main cause of fear and one need not be ignorant. If in fact God does exist and you do not know that then you have no light to see by and walk in darkness and that is indeed a fearful thing. :)

Of the few atheist that are in the world they are the most ignorant of all if they believe God does not exist and God does exist.

I would like to know how the cosmos came to be and what are my beginnings and where am I headed and of course not just me but of all humanity and all creations. Truly, God is the only source who gives us the knowledge, understanding and wisdom we need. Science depends on God 100%.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 
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treeplanter

Well-known member
Can you quote some scriptural passages to support this claim? Sorry for putting the "all" in there but I thought that was the natural assumption of your point.

I think it depends on the period. It's true to some extent with the conquest of Canaan but rarely the case outside of that. For instance, the early Israelite kings had people working for them who weren't Jews.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones"

Here, God is commanding His followers to kill those that do not believe in Him

Believing in other gods and transgressing against His covenant is part and parcel of not believing in Him

If, however, you insist on denying that God commanded the death of unbelievers and wish to frame it instead as God commanding the death of those who worship different gods then I am perfectly fine with restating my objection to God:

In this case, I am asserting that God is immoral and evil NOT because He commanded His followers to kill unbelievers but because He commanded His followers to kill those who believe in other gods

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other as far as I am concerned

Bottom line is that God immorally commanded His followers to kill human beings because they didn't believe
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Ignorance is the main cause of fear and one need not be ignorant. If in fact God does exist and you do not know that then you have no light to see by and walk in darkness and that is indeed a fearful thing. :)

Of the few atheist that are in the world they are the most ignorant of all if they believe God does not exist and God does exist.

I would like to know how the cosmos came to be and what are my beginnings and where am I headed and of course not just me but of all humanity and all creations. Truly, God is the only source who gives us the knowledge, understanding and wisdom we need. Science depends on God 100%.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
I agree that ignorance is the main cause of fear

I have always believed that fear is the anxiety that accompanies the unknown while it's equal and opposite - love, is the contentment that coincides with knowledge

How, though, do you arrive at God as being the answer that dispels fear {ignorance / unknown}?
 

SeventhDay

Active member
I agree that ignorance is the main cause of fear

I have always believed that fear is the anxiety that accompanies the unknown while it's equal and opposite - love, is the contentment that coincides with knowledge

How, though, do you arrive at God as being the answer that dispels fear {ignorance / unknown}?
It is because God is the source of all things whether good or evil ignorance or truth and which would you prefer that God give you. False knowledge is more ignorant that not knowing anything. Would you agree? :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones"

Here, God is commanding His followers to kill those that do not believe in Him

Believing in other gods and transgressing against His covenant is part and parcel of not believing in Him

If, however, you insist on denying that God commanded the death of unbelievers and wish to frame it instead as God commanding the death of those who worship different gods then I am perfectly fine with restating my objection to God:

In this case, I am asserting that God is immoral and evil NOT because He commanded His followers to kill unbelievers but because He commanded His followers to kill those who believe in other gods

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other as far as I am concerned

Bottom line is that God immorally commanded His followers to kill human beings because they didn't believe
That's an interesting quote. Notice that it applies to Jewish believers, since they have had to transgress God's covenant and done "what is evil" in the sight of God. This isn't a blanket statement to kill those who don't believe in God but those who are members of the covenant community and have turned against God. It's a kind of religious treachery that, under a theocracy, amounts to treason against the state. This is only death for a small subset of unbelievers.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
It is because God is the source of all things whether good or evil ignorance or truth and which would you prefer that God give you. False knowledge is more ignorant that not knowing anything. Would you agree? :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
Certainly, I would prefer ignorance {absence of knowledge} over stupidity {false knowledge}

However, you didn't tell me how it is that you 'know' that God is a source of knowledge
Simply iterating that He is the source of all things is not sufficient
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
That's an interesting quote. Notice that it applies to Jewish believers, since they have had to transgress God's covenant and done "what is evil" in the sight of God. This isn't a blanket statement to kill those who don't believe in God but those who are members of the covenant community and have turned against God. It's a kind of religious treachery that, under a theocracy, amounts to treason against the state. This is only death for a small subset of unbelievers.
Yes, I know full well that this command is directed at a relatively small population and, then, only within a relatively narrow window of time

My point, though, is that a god who commands a follower to murder another human being for the "crime" of not belonging to the "in group" is an evil and immoral god utterly unworthy of devotion

Supposedly perfect gods would never have, at any time and under any circumstance, behaved in such an evil and immoral fashion - period

If I were looking for a babysitter and discovered that a particular candidate had molested a child in the past - I don't care if the abuse took place 50 years in the past - I would NEVER hire him/her

It's no different with God
There is NO CIRCUMSTANCE wherein it is acceptable for Him to have supported evil
 

SeventhDay

Active member
Certainly, I would prefer ignorance {absence of knowledge} over stupidity {false knowledge}

However, you didn't tell me how it is that you 'know' that God is a source of knowledge
Simply iterating that He is the source of all things is not sufficient
How can one who denies or doubts God's existence believe in God who is willing to reveal himself to one who is ignorant? There is a reason why one is ignorant according to Romans chapter 1. However, why is it that one would refuese to accept what it is saying? It tells us why but the atheist does not want to believe it because they would be convicted of wilful sin? This is why atheist ask for proof of God's existence which is an excuse for their sin.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
How can one who denies or doubts God's existence believe in God who is willing to reveal himself to one who is ignorant? There is a reason why one is ignorant according to Romans chapter 1. However, why is it that one would refuese to accept what it is saying? It tells us why but the atheist does not want to believe it because they would be convicted of wilful sin? This is why atheist ask for proof of God's existence which is an excuse for their sin.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
I'm not following - are you saying that doubt is willful and that God, therefore, despite His willingness to otherwise reveal Himself, chooses to remain hidden?

Do you really, truly, believe that atheists lack belief in God because we desire to go on 'sinning'?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Yes, I know full well that this command is directed at a relatively small population and, then, only within a relatively narrow window of time

My point, though, is that a god who commands a follower to murder another human being for the "crime" of not belonging to the "in group" is an evil and immoral god utterly unworthy of devotion

Supposedly perfect gods would never have, at any time and under any circumstance, behaved in such an evil and immoral fashion - period

If I were looking for a babysitter and discovered that a particular candidate had molested a child in the past - I don't care if the abuse took place 50 years in the past - I would NEVER hire him/her

It's no different with God
There is NO CIRCUMSTANCE wherein it is acceptable for Him to have supported evil
Would you say that a Russian who went to America during the height of the Cold War and sold off state secrets shouldn't be punished since he's just belonging to the "in group"? At the time when the Jewish people were just establishing themselves, with many hostile enemies around them, ideological and religious unity was incredibly important and deviation from it could be dangerous to the continuance of the community. In fact, we see in later history of the kingdoms how - at least from a biblical perspective - this was the result.

On a more general level, do you think it is evil to punish someone for betraying their nation or God?
 

SeventhDay

Active member
I'm not following - are you saying that doubt is willful and that God, therefore, despite His willingness to otherwise reveal Himself, chooses to remain hidden?

Do you really, truly, believe that atheists lack belief in God because we desire to go on 'sinning'?
Atheist lack belief because they became ungracious of who God is and made and worshipped their own God even as themselves like the King of Babylon did.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 
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