Self Defeating Numbskullery

treeplanter

Well-known member
Would you say that a Russian who went to America during the height of the Cold War and sold off state secrets shouldn't be punished since he's just belonging to the "in group"? At the time when the Jewish people were just establishing themselves, with many hostile enemies around them, ideological and religious unity was incredibly important and deviation from it could be dangerous to the continuance of the community. In fact, we see in later history of the kingdoms how - at least from a biblical perspective - this was the result.

On a more general level, do you think it is evil to punish someone for betraying their nation or God?
You're comparing the nuclear age stealing/selling/sharing of vital state information that can endanger the very existence of a country and it's people with an iron age goat herder worshiping a god other than YHVH...

Sorry, but I don't see how the one meaningfully correlates to the other

That said, even if belief in other gods was a legitimate threat to the Jewish Nation, God could have devised other means by which to protect the burgeoning culture and society of His people - means that did not include a command to kill human beings for the so-called 'crime' of sincerely believing in the wrong god


The only sure fire means by which man can guarantee that a traitor can never again threaten the existence of his/her nation is to eliminate the traitor

There are, however, available to God, an infinite number of means by which to preserve His people without killing the surrounding people

As to your question regarding whether or not it is evil to betray one's nation - I think it depends
As to your question as to whether or not it is evil to betray God - I don't believe that God exists
Something must exist before it can be betrayed

Question for you:
Do you believe that atheists are betraying Jesus Christ?
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Atheist lack belief because they became ungracious of who God is and made and worshipped their own God even as themselves like the King of Babylon did.




God bless you,

SeventhDay
I'm pretty sure that most every atheist is going to tell you that they lack belief because of the lack of sufficient reason to believe

Count me among them

Furthermore, even if I were to be convinced that the God of scripture exists - I would not worship Him on moral grounds

The actions attributed to God in the bible are such as to make Him utterly unworthy of my devotion

Is this what you mean by "ungraciousness"?
 

SeventhDay

Active member
The way you are right now is ungracious seeing that you are a better judge than God who you condemn. I doubt that God is happy with you but God is more gracious than you are and patient towards you but God is going to change your thinking when he is ready and you can not prevent him. God is worthy of your respect so do not put yourself in a position of judgment where you have to be corrected.

I believe the apostle who was Spirit led to say what he did and you disbelieve him just as you disbelieve the existence of God asking for proof when there is proof that God has revealed his existence to you.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
The way you are right now is ungracious seeing that you are a better judge than God who you condemn. I doubt that God is happy with you but God is more gracious than you are and patient towards you but God is going to change your thinking when he is ready and you can not prevent him. God is worthy of your respect so do not put yourself in a position of judgment where you have to be corrected.

I believe the apostle who was Spirit led to say what he did and you disbelieve him just as you disbelieve the existence of God asking for proof when there is proof that God has revealed his existence to you.



God bless you,

SeventhDay
It's not just me who is a better judge than God - it's all of us, yourself included
God offends the human standard

Would you drown a baby?
Would you own a slave?
Would you kill me because I don't believe in your god?

No, of course, you wouldn't

Why is it OK in your eyes for God to do that which you know in your heart to be evil?

If God wants to explain to me how and why it is not evil for Him to do that which all men know to be evil, I'm all ears
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
You're comparing the nuclear age stealing/selling/sharing of vital state information that can endanger the very existence of a country and it's people with an iron age goat herder worshiping a god other than YHVH...

Sorry, but I don't see how the one meaningfully correlates to the other

That said, even if belief in other gods was a legitimate threat to the Jewish Nation, God could have devised other means by which to protect the burgeoning culture and society of His people - means that did not include a command to kill human beings for the so-called 'crime' of sincerely believing in the wrong god


The only sure fire means by which man can guarantee that a traitor can never again threaten the existence of his/her nation is to eliminate the traitor

There are, however, available to God, an infinite number of means by which to preserve His people without killing the surrounding people

As to your question regarding whether or not it is evil to betray one's nation - I think it depends
As to your question as to whether or not it is evil to betray God - I don't believe that God exists
Something must exist before it can be betrayed

Question for you:
Do you believe that atheists are betraying Jesus Christ?
The significance is in the fragility of a newly established cultural group in an area, surrounded by other people groups and kingdoms who have (in some respect) vastly different (and attractive) religious, political and cultural practices. It's like if you took your family camping up a mountain and got stuck in a cave due to an avalanche. You'd probably warn/discipline your kids more strictly not to eat all their food at once because of the precarious conditions than if you were safe and a short walk to the car.

Your argument seems to suggest that betrayal of the God who saved and sustains your people is an innocent thing, or, one a purely naturalistic level, that betrayal of the ideological concepts protecting and binding your people together is. I think that's wrong. Furthermore, God has the authority to kill anyone He pleases (directly or indirectly) since both our moral and metaphysical existence is compromised before Him.

In terms of the situation under discussion, punishing a traitor serves as both an immediate protection and deterrent. Can you suggest some other practical means that could have worked in a short period of time?

Do atheists betray Christ? Not directly and consciously, no, since they don't believe in him; however, ultimately anyone who rejects God in some sense betrays Him since everything is dependent on God. It's like spitting in the face of your parents, only infinitely worse.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
The significance is in the fragility of a newly established cultural group in an area, surrounded by other people groups and kingdoms who have (in some respect) vastly different (and attractive) religious, political and cultural practices. It's like if you took your family camping up a mountain and got stuck in a cave due to an avalanche. You'd probably warn/discipline your kids more strictly not to eat all their food at once because of the precarious conditions than if you were safe and a short walk to the car.

Your argument seems to suggest that betrayal of the God who saved and sustains your people is an innocent thing, or, one a purely naturalistic level, that betrayal of the ideological concepts protecting and binding your people together is. I think that's wrong. Furthermore, God has the authority to kill anyone He pleases (directly or indirectly) since both our moral and metaphysical existence is compromised before Him.

In terms of the situation under discussion, punishing a traitor serves as both an immediate protection and deterrent. Can you suggest some other practical means that could have worked in a short period of time?

Do atheists betray Christ? Not directly and consciously, no, since they don't believe in him; however, ultimately anyone who rejects God in some sense betrays Him since everything is dependent on God. It's like spitting in the face of your parents, only infinitely worse.
If the religious, political, and cultural practices of surrounding groups were more attractive to the Jews than their own YHVH directed practices then God should have made the practices of His people more appealing in an effort to compete

Either that or God should have simply explained to His people why the less appealing and more austere practices that He mandates are ultimately preferable to those of the surrounding peoples

At any rate, a command to kill those with differing religious and political and cultural practices was NOT a morally acceptable solution

Not for a human being and especially not for an omniscient and omnipotent god who is supposed to be a perfect expression of justice and love

Were those who worshiped different gods at the time of the ancient Hebrews innocent?
Yes, they were

I cannot conceive of any reason why they should have worshiped the non-YHVH god or gods that they did had they not sincerely believed that said god{s} were the correct and true ones

No different than today

A woman born in India and raised into the Hindu faith believes with every fiber of her being that her religious faith and her god{s} is real and true

She is every bit as convinced to her way of thinking as you are to yours
Does she deserve to be killed?

I don't understand this sentence:
"Your argument seems to suggest that betrayal of the God who saved and sustains your people is an innocent thing, or, one a purely naturalistic level, that betrayal of the ideological concepts protecting and binding your people together is"

I think that you are wrong
God DOES NOT have the "authority to kill anyone He pleases"
At least, not a moral authority

Is He capable of killing anyone He wants?
Absolutely
Does this make it moral for Him to kill anyone He wants?
Absolutely not

Our moral existence
Mine and yours - does not come from God

This is quite obvious in light of the fact that neither you or I, on the basis of basic human moral objection, would ever do half the things that God is said to have done

What do you mean by our moral existence being compromised before Him?

I don't accept the premise that those who worshiped gods other than YHVH were traitors

Assuming, though, that they WERE traitors - it's not up to me to suggest practical means outside of killing by which they could have been neutralized

The bottom line remains that God could have come up with an infinite number of practical means by which to neutralize these folks without ordering that they be killed and He consciously and purposefully chose to have them killed anyway

God consciously and purposefully chose a needlessly immoral solution

Sometimes, parents well deserve to be spit upon

I have been blessed with great parents, but were my parents immoral monsters then I would have no compunction, whatsoever, in spitting in their faces
 

SeventhDay

Active member
It's not just me who is a better judge than God - it's all of us, yourself included
God offends the human standard

Would you drown a baby?
Would you own a slave?
Would you kill me because I don't believe in your god?

No, of course, you wouldn't

Why is it OK in your eyes for God to do that which you know in your heart to be evil?

If God wants to explain to me how and why it is not evil for Him to do that which all men know to be evil, I'm all ears
Please do not speak for me or for other believers though not yet perfected put their faith in God and trust God for all that he does. It is the carnal mind that usurps God's glory, dethrones him and sits in his place. You ought to consider your folly and change your thinking as God seeks to work through you. :)

God bless you and have mercy on you.

SeventhDay
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
If the religious, political, and cultural practices of surrounding groups were more attractive to the Jews than their own YHVH directed practices then God should have made the practices of His people more appealing in an effort to compete

Either that or God should have simply explained to His people why the less appealing and more austere practices that He mandates are ultimately preferable to those of the surrounding peoples

At any rate, a command to kill those with differing religious and political and cultural practices was NOT a morally acceptable solution

Not for a human being and especially not for an omniscient and omnipotent god who is supposed to be a perfect expression of justice and love

Were those who worshiped different gods at the time of the ancient Hebrews innocent?
Yes, they were

I cannot conceive of any reason why they should have worshiped the non-YHVH god or gods that they did had they not sincerely believed that said god{s} were the correct and true ones

No different than today

A woman born in India and raised into the Hindu faith believes with every fiber of her being that her religious faith and her god{s} is real and true

She is every bit as convinced to her way of thinking as you are to yours
Does she deserve to be killed?

I don't understand this sentence:
"Your argument seems to suggest that betrayal of the God who saved and sustains your people is an innocent thing, or, one a purely naturalistic level, that betrayal of the ideological concepts protecting and binding your people together is"

I think that you are wrong
God DOES NOT have the "authority to kill anyone He pleases"
At least, not a moral authority

Is He capable of killing anyone He wants?
Absolutely
Does this make it moral for Him to kill anyone He wants?
Absolutely not

Our moral existence
Mine and yours - does not come from God

This is quite obvious in light of the fact that neither you or I, on the basis of basic human moral objection, would ever do half the things that God is said to have done

What do you mean by our moral existence being compromised before Him?

I don't accept the premise that those who worshiped gods other than YHVH were traitors

Assuming, though, that they WERE traitors - it's not up to me to suggest practical means outside of killing by which they could have been neutralized

The bottom line remains that God could have come up with an infinite number of practical means by which to neutralize these folks without ordering that they be killed and He consciously and purposefully chose to have them killed anyway

God consciously and purposefully chose a needlessly immoral solution

Sometimes, parents well deserve to be spit upon

I have been blessed with great parents, but were my parents immoral monsters then I would have no compunction, whatsoever, in spitting in their faces
I'm not sure what your view of human nature is but the appeal to other cultures isn't for necessarily positive reasons, though some might be, e.g. they seem more powerful, wealthier, etc. Explaining truths to people and expecting them to always follow right judgement doesn't always happen with human beings - that's why we have laws and courts.

You state it isn't a morally acceptable solution but what's your justification? Are you saying that God is morally obligated not to kill (directly or indirectly) guilty human beings, even though they only exist and are sustained by Him?

"Our moral existence... does not come from God." What do you mean by that? That moral values and obligations are not grounded in a transcendent reality? Or, that we don't need to know about the Ten Commandments to know murder is wrong? However, it does seem quite clear that human beings will give the death penalty to people who have committed heinous crimes and that's not view by wrong by many people.

I think you also confuse the nature of God with the nature of contingent reality. By "our moral existence is compromised before Him" I mean that, since we have sinned, we are morally guilty before God. We have no claim to innocence at all. Now, one might argue: "Yes, but we aren't guilty of being put to death just because we sin", which may be true, but it would also be true that God would have no moral obligation to sustain the life of a guilty person.

Well, if you don't accept the premise about those worshipping other gods being traitors to their own god, I don't think we have much else to discuss. It's kind of like, if I don't accept the premise that killing innocent human beings is wrong, we can't really discuss why murder is wrong.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Please do not speak for me or for other believers though not yet perfected put their faith in God and trust God for all that he does. It is the carnal mind that usurps God's glory, dethrones him and sits in his place. You ought to consider your folly and change your thinking as God seeks to work through you. :)

God bless you and have mercy on you.

SeventhDay
Would you drown a baby?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

Would you own a slave?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

Would you kill me because I don't believe in your god?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

If you cannot bring yourself to answer YES to the above questions then I have no other choice except to maintain that we share a common moral standard of humanity, itself

A standard that finds God's morality severely wanting
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Would you drown a baby?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

Would you own a slave?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

Would you kill me because I don't believe in your god?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

If you cannot bring yourself to answer YES to the above questions then I have no other choice except to maintain that we share a common moral standard of humanity, itself

A standard that finds God's morality severely wanting
Perhaps I'll butt in - if you gents don't mind - and respond:

1. Would you drown a baby?
No. Why? Because I have a moral obligation not to drown babies. Why? Because I have no authority over the life and death of persons.

2. Would you own a slave?
No, though it depends what you mean by "slavery". Slavery can be a condition of punishment, communal protection or indentured servitude. Indeed, when we put people into prison, we deprive them of liberty and basically make them "slaves of the state". Depending on what kind of slavery you are talking about and the socio-historical context in which it occurs, it might be morally legitimate.

3. Would I kill you because you don't believe in God?
No. Why? Because I have a moral obligation not to kill people just because their opinions differ from my own. Why? Because I have no authority over the life and death of persons.
 

SeventhDay

Active member
Would you drown a baby?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

Would you own a slave?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

Would you kill me because I don't believe in your god?
Answer YES and I will apologize for having taken it upon myself to speak for you

If you cannot bring yourself to answer YES to the above questions then I have no other choice except to maintain that we share a common moral standard of humanity, itself

A standard that finds God's morality severely wanting
I seek to harmonize with God's will not with my carnal mind. God is the judge of the whole earth even you. I would be mindful of God's judgements which are for our good. If that means flooding the earth or putting the earth on fire then glory to God. Father knows best! :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
I'm not sure what your view of human nature is but the appeal to other cultures isn't for necessarily positive reasons, though some might be, e.g. they seem more powerful, wealthier, etc. Explaining truths to people and expecting them to always follow right judgement doesn't always happen with human beings - that's why we have laws and courts.

You state it isn't a morally acceptable solution but what's your justification? Are you saying that God is morally obligated not to kill (directly or indirectly) guilty human beings, even though they only exist and are sustained by Him?

"Our moral existence... does not come from God." What do you mean by that? That moral values and obligations are not grounded in a transcendent reality? Or, that we don't need to know about the Ten Commandments to know murder is wrong? However, it does seem quite clear that human beings will give the death penalty to people who have committed heinous crimes and that's not view by wrong by many people.

I think you also confuse the nature of God with the nature of contingent reality. By "our moral existence is compromised before Him" I mean that, since we have sinned, we are morally guilty before God. We have no claim to innocence at all. Now, one might argue: "Yes, but we aren't guilty of being put to death just because we sin", which may be true, but it would also be true that God would have no moral obligation to sustain the life of a guilty person.

Well, if you don't accept the premise about those worshipping other gods being traitors to their own god, I don't think we have much else to discuss. It's kind of like, if I don't accept the premise that killing innocent human beings is wrong, we can't really discuss why murder is wrong.
Human nature is quite a big topic to be venturing into...
I haven't the time or energy to go there at the moment

You categorize human beings who believed in other gods as guilty because God considered them as such
What I am saying is that God was wrong
They were NOT guilty
Therefore, they did NOT deserve to be killed

That said, even if they were, in fact, guilty by reason of not believing in YHVH, the punishment of being murdered was certainly NOT commensurate with the 'guilt' of not believing in YHVH

By who's authority do I make this proclamation?
By my own
By yours
By ours
By that of humanity itself

That you would never, ever kill me for not believing in your god is all the justification I need to assert that God's morality is contrary to your own


YES
Moral values and obligations are NOT grounded in a transcendent reality

and

YES
We don't need to know about the Ten Commandments to know murder is wrong

CORRECT
Human beings will give the death penalty to people who have committed heinous crimes and that's not viewed as wrong by many people


What you're not acknowledging, though, is that God is supposed to be well above and beyond us
A propensity to destroy life seems to me to be a lower manifestation of imperfect humanity - not something that a perfect god would indulge in

And, again, even if it is within the nature of a perfect god to command it's followers to kill - God remains in the wrong for having decreed such a fate when it is not warranted - i.e. God commanded that perfectly innocent people be killed

I've no problem with an assertion that God has no moral duty to sustain life

Can you understand, though, that there is a huge difference between remaining hands off and setting one's hand to the death of a human being?

You hold that we are guilty because God says we are guilty
I say that God is wrong
I, for one, am not guilty
I doubt very much that you are guilty
I believe that the vast majority of human beings on earth are not guilty
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Perhaps I'll butt in - if you gents don't mind - and respond:

1. Would you drown a baby?
No. Why? Because I have a moral obligation not to drown babies. Why? Because I have no authority over the life and death of persons.

2. Would you own a slave?
No, though it depends what you mean by "slavery". Slavery can be a condition of punishment, communal protection or indentured servitude. Indeed, when we put people into prison, we deprive them of liberty and basically make them "slaves of the state". Depending on what kind of slavery you are talking about and the socio-historical context in which it occurs, it might be morally legitimate.

3. Would I kill you because you don't believe in God?
No. Why? Because I have a moral obligation not to kill people just because their opinions differ from my own. Why? Because I have no authority over the life and death of persons.
God has the exact same moral obligation, Jonathan

One cannot command a subordinate to conform to a moral standard and then personally disregard said standard

At least, not if one expects to remain in a position of moral authority

Just because He can do as He pleases with us does NOT mean that He should
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
I seek to harmonize with God's will not with my carnal mind. God is the judge of the whole earth even you. I would be mindful of God's judgements which are for our good. If that means flooding the earth or putting the earth on fire then glory to God. Father knows best! :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
Forgive my bluntness, but that is a copout

Why not just admit that God did and does things that you know to be immoral?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Human nature is quite a big topic to be venturing into...
I haven't the time or energy to go there at the moment

You categorize human beings who believed in other gods as guilty because God considered them as such
What I am saying is that God was wrong
They were NOT guilty
Therefore, they did NOT deserve to be killed

That said, even if they were, in fact, guilty by reason of not believing in YHVH, the punishment of being murdered was certainly NOT commensurate with the 'guilt' of not believing in YHVH

By who's authority do I make this proclamation?
By my own
By yours
By ours
By that of humanity itself

That you would never, ever kill me for not believing in your god is all the justification I need to assert that God's morality is contrary to your own


YES
Moral values and obligations are NOT grounded in a transcendent reality

and

YES
We don't need to know about the Ten Commandments to know murder is wrong

CORRECT
Human beings will give the death penalty to people who have committed heinous crimes and that's not viewed as wrong by many people


What you're not acknowledging, though, is that God is supposed to be well above and beyond us
A propensity to destroy life seems to me to be a lower manifestation of imperfect humanity - not something that a perfect god would indulge in

And, again, even if it is within the nature of a perfect god to command it's followers to kill - God remains in the wrong for having decreed such a fate when it is not warranted - i.e. God commanded that perfectly innocent people be killed

I've no problem with an assertion that God has no moral duty to sustain life

Can you understand, though, that there is a huge difference between remaining hands off and setting one's hand to the death of a human being?

You hold that we are guilty because God says we are guilty
I say that God is wrong
I, for one, am not guilty
I doubt very much that you are guilty
I believe that the vast majority of human beings on earth are not guilty
Okay, if you think they're not guilty, then fine. However, the question is how does the biblical text and tradition present them - since that's what we're judging - and it presents them as guilty. Why do you think the death penalty was not commensurate with their betrayal of their God and people? (Again, this is how the text and tradition present them.)

Now, you can make this proclamation by the authority of humanity but we are questioning the authority of God here. So, I suppose, you'd need to be a god or higher than a god (if that's logically possible) to do so, I presume. I mean, it's like an infant proclaiming her own authority over what her parents do (but an infinitely greater degree of separation). I think this is the crux of the issue. As you say: "I say that God is wrong." What gives you the authority to say that? If God exists and is the foundation of moral value and obligation, then how can you have more authority than God?

As I noted, I wouldn't kill you because I'm morally obligated not to, that is, I don't have the right to do so. However, there could be situations where that might change, e.g. if you committed a capital crime and I was an authorised executioner. Again, though, we are dealing with like-kinds, where we are on an equal level; with God, He is a different kind in the most radical way possible (if even one can call God a "kind" or "species").

What are moral obligations and values grounded in?

God isn't destroying life when people are killed. Souls are immortal. He's just changing the conditions of their lives.

Again though, you think they are "perfectly innocent" but the text and tradition do not. So, you're evaluating them by your standards, not their own. How are your standards more true than theirs?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
God has the exact same moral obligation, Jonathan

One cannot command a subordinate to conform to a moral standard and then personally disregard said standard

At least, not if one expects to remain in a position of moral authority

Just because He can do as He pleases with us does NOT mean that He should
I disagree. I don't see why God has such moral obligations. We're not just subordinates of God, we're contingent creatures complete sustained by God. I think you misunderstand the fundamental nature of God, at least, the Christian conception as taught in Western theology, particularly under the Scholastics.
 

SeventhDay

Active member
Forgive my bluntness, but that is a copout

Why not just admit that God did and does things that you know to be immoral?
Sorry, you can not compare God with man! You can not bring God down to your level or bring yourself up to God's level but God can come down to our level and bring us up to his level. However, what you are doing is usurping God repeatedly and committing the Sin of the Babylonians who built a tower up to God and tried to appease him and get God to do their bidding. That is exactly what you are doing! You are saying:

"God I know what is best for humanity and myself and though I do not believe that you exist but if you do exist I do not like the way you do things and I could do better and so could humanity do better. If you exist God we do not need you and we will not worship you.

Well. I have an answer for you in God's words so take heed!

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Okay, if you think they're not guilty, then fine. However, the question is how does the biblical text and tradition present them - since that's what we're judging - and it presents them as guilty. Why do you think the death penalty was not commensurate with their betrayal of their God and people? (Again, this is how the text and tradition present them.)

Now, you can make this proclamation by the authority of humanity but we are questioning the authority of God here. So, I suppose, you'd need to be a god or higher than a god (if that's logically possible) to do so, I presume. I mean, it's like an infant proclaiming her own authority over what her parents do (but an infinitely greater degree of separation). I think this is the crux of the issue. As you say: "I say that God is wrong." What gives you the authority to say that? If God exists and is the foundation of moral value and obligation, then how can you have more authority than God?

As I noted, I wouldn't kill you because I'm morally obligated not to, that is, I don't have the right to do so. However, there could be situations where that might change, e.g. if you committed a capital crime and I was an authorised executioner. Again, though, we are dealing with like-kinds, where we are on an equal level; with God, He is a different kind in the most radical way possible (if even one can call God a "kind" or "species").

What are moral obligations and values grounded in?

God isn't destroying life when people are killed. Souls are immortal. He's just changing the conditions of their lives.

Again though, you think they are "perfectly innocent" but the text and tradition do not. So, you're evaluating them by your standards, not their own. How are your standards more true than theirs?
Fine, within the text and tradition of scripture - it was perfectly acceptable for God to sentence unbelievers to death
In reality, however, it is evil and immoral to kill a human being for not believing in a god or given version of a god

Yes, we ARE questioning the authority of God here

The disconnect seems to be that you are approaching God within the context of what scripture says about Him and I am approaching God within the context of what the human race says about the concepts of right and wrong

I don't think that God exists
More importantly, I KNOW that God, as described in scripture and then applied to our reality, is immoral

I am baffled as to why you think I need to be a god or something greater than a god to know this...?
You, yourself, know the same thing I do, Jonathan

Again, you, personally, would never, ever do half the things that have been attributed to God and the reason why is because you maintain a moral standard far and above that maintained by God

God might exist, but He is NOT the foundation of moral value and obligation
His actions, as described in scripture, prove this

By what authority do I say this?
By the authority of man
By the authority of the concept that man created - that of right and wrong and the differentiation therein

It baffles me that you share the same standard as I do, but remain insistent that a contrary standard is to be exalted over your/our own just because it is written in the bible

By the way, that one's existence might continue after life on earth does NOT make it morally right to end an earthly life against one's will
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If you're not going to argue in support of your claims, then don't be surprised when no-one takes them seriously.
People don't take the truth seriously because they love their sin.

Even Jesus said as much.

Joh 3:18-21 WEB 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

So telling me that you actually take something stated when framed as an academic argument just shows that you have no love for truth.

Your love is for winning an argument.

Truth allows us to win only when we turn to God from our sin and place our trust in Jesus.

Everything else is broken on the rock of truth, and those who love the arguments are pulverized by the Rock.

Luk 20:17-18 WEB 17 But he looked at them and said, “Then what is this that is written, ‘The stone which the builders rejected was made the chief cornerstone?’ 18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but it will crush whomever it falls on to dust.”

Thus, it is simply a matter of whether you want to know the truth or continue to love, and make a lie.

But these people must stay outside the city:

People who like to do what is bad
People who do magic
People who have sex with someone who is not their husband or their wife
People who do murders
People who worship false gods
Everyone who enjoys saying what is not true. And everyone who enjoys doing what is not honest.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
I disagree. I don't see why God has such moral obligations. We're not just subordinates of God, we're contingent creatures complete sustained by God. I think you misunderstand the fundamental nature of God, at least, the Christian conception as taught in Western theology, particularly under the Scholastics.
He can do whatever He wants and there is not a damn thing any one of us can do about it

However, if He wants to be seen as a moral being in the eyes of man then He IS obligated to comport Himself in a moral fashion

That we are contingent creatures completely sustained by Him does not change this

I understand full well the fundamental nature of God as taught in Western theology and I roundly reject it
 
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