"self-righteousness"?

[dberrie2020]

Redeemed said: And if I'm stuck in believing that, if I have my heels dug into the idea that my performance and self-righteousness is going to give me some sort of right standing I'm deceiving myself and the truth is not in me.

I have a question for the board:

Is this an example of those who believe that their performance will give them some sort of "right standing" with the Lord, or those who believe their self righteousness will give them a right standing with the Lord?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

 

[dberrie2020]

I have a question for the board:

Is this an example of those who believe that their performance will give them some sort of "right standing" with the Lord, or those who believe their self righteousness will give them a right standing with the Lord?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

I thought I would post a reply to my question above:

it is an example of a "good" person with mere mental assent of basic facts:
but they have accepted the God-given gift of faith:
They are not in Christ and Christ is not in them

Could I ask--who believes God applies His Blood unto the cleansing of one's sins--to those who are not "in Christ"?

 

[Theo1689]

Could I ask--who believes God applies His Blood unto the cleansing of one's sins--to those who are not "in Christ"?

Could I ask the question gone begging?

"Who puts a man in Christ, God, or the man?


John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Gary Mac]

I have a question for the board:

Is this an example of those who believe that their performance will give them some sort of "right standing" with the Lord, or those who believe their self righteousness will give them a right standing with the Lord?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

The only way to know God and His heaven at all is to receive from Him that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16. God manifest in you as He was manifest in Jesus no different at all. If one is different from Him then God can do noting in you to cleans you from all unrighteousness.

 

[dberrie2020]

Could I ask the question gone begging?

"Who puts a man in Christ, God, or the man?


John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Not sure how you are relating that to the OP.

The question being---is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Algernon]

I have a question for the board:

Is this an example of those who believe that their performance will give them some sort of "right standing" with the Lord, or those who believe their self righteousness will give them a right standing with the Lord?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 1
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Not sure what you have in mind when you ask about "self righteousness", but logically speaking in order for "the blood of Jesus Christ" to "cleanseth us from all sin" one must "walk in the light, as he is in the light". This requires that one not commit sin, since "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all"; "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not"; and "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin".

Clearly only those who do not commit sin "walk in the light, as he is in the light".

 

[UncleAbee]

I have a question for the board:

Is this an example of those who believe that their performance will give them some sort of "right standing" with the Lord, or those who believe their self righteousness will give them a right standing with the Lord?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

No. This is not about self righteousness. This is about faithful obedience. The Christian who is faithfully obedient will receive cleansing of sin. The Christian who is also faithfully obedient will not practice self righteousness. Self righteousness is giving yourself all the credit for saving yourself. The command in 1 John 1:7 comes from God. The faithful Christian is following what God said to do. This makes the Christian righteous but not "self" righteous. If I am following what God said do then I cannot take credit for creating the plan that saved me.

 

[dberrie2020]

No. This is not about self righteousness. This is about faithful obedience. The Christian who is faithfully obedient will receive cleansing of sin. The Christian who is also faithfully obedient will not practice self righteousness. Self righteousness is giving yourself all the credit for saving yourself. The command in 1 John 1:7 comes from God. The faithful Christian is following what God said to do. This makes the Christian righteous but not "self" righteous. If I am following what God said do then I cannot take credit for creating the plan that saved me.

Hi Uncle:

I don't find anything in there I disagree with. I believe that is a good answer.

The cause for my concern is--there are quite a few who claim if one is obedience to God--and receive of His grace--then that is "works righteous" theology.

Faith alone theology preaches one is saved independent of, and excluding ---all acts of obedience to God. Any scripture posted ---which has God extending His grace to them which walk in His light--is looked on as works righteousness--in faith alone theology.

IOW--scrriptures such as this is nothing short of self righteousness, or "works righteousness":

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Theo1689]

The cause for my concern is--there are quite a few who claim if one is obedience to God--and receive of His grace--then that is "works righteous" theology.

It's sad that you have to engage in a STRAW-MAN and MISREPRESENTATION in order to try to "win" an argument.

Christianity: believers do works BECAUSE they are saved.

Mormonism (dberrie-ism): "believers do works IN ORDER TO be saved.

Works exist in both paradigms, but in the former (the Biblical one), works don't contribute to one's salvation.

Faith alone theology preaches one is saved independent of, and excluding ---all acts of obedience to God. Any scripture posted ---which has God extending His grace to them which walk in His light--is looked on as works righteousness--in faith alone theology.

IOW--scrriptures such as this is nothing short of self righteousness, or "works righteousness":

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I have asked you TIME and TIME again if you understand the difference between "correlation" and "causation".

You constantly RUN AWAY from this question.

I have asked you TIME and TIME again why you ASSUME "causation" in Matt. 19.

You constantly RUN AWAY from this question.

 

[dberrie2020]

1 John 1
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Not sure what you have in mind when you ask about "self righteousness", but logically speaking in order for "the blood of Jesus Christ" to "cleanseth us from all sin" one must "walk in the light, as he is in the light".

That is heresy in faith alone theology. In faith alone theology--all acts of obedience are excluded in obtaining the Blood of Christ unto life.(cleansed of sin).

 

[Theo1689]

That is heresy in faith alone theology. In faith alone theology--all acts of obedience are excluded in obtaining the Blood of Christ unto life.(cleansed of sin).

Can you explain what the phrase, "without works" means in the following verse?:

Rom. 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

No, of course you can't.
They contradict your false teachings.
So you're going to continue to RUN AWAY from it, and hide behind some "works-friendly" verse.

 

[dberrie2020]

Works exist in both paradigms, but in the former (the Biblical one), works don't contribute to one's salvation.

Well--here it is, folks--faith alone theology at work.

IOW----- scriptures such as those which testify they who walk in His light--receive of His Blood--is pure heresy?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Theo1689]

Well--here it is, folks--faith alone theology at work.

IOW----- scriptures such as those which testify they who walk in His light--receive of His Blood--is pure heresy?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The Scripture isn't heresy.
Your misinterpretation is heresy.

Why do you RUN AWAY from explaining the difference between "causation" and "correlation"?

Why do you RUN AWAY form explaining why you ASSUME "causation" in that verse?

Why do you RUN AWAY from explaining to us what "without works" means in the following verse?:

Rom. 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[dberrie2020]

Can you explain what the phrase, "without works" means in the following verse?:

Rom. 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Paul's point in Romans 4 was Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--but under the gospel of grace.

IOW---the very ones of the Mosaic Law who were attempting to crucify Paul for preaching the gospel--were the very ones running to "father Abraham" to claim their elect status--and Abraham lived under the gospel of grace--not the law of works--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the Jews.

Paul differentiated between works(rituals of the Mosaic Law) and obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Theo--Paul couldn't be making the point our actions were independent of His grace unto life, as Paul just two chapters earlier:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Could you collate that to the way you interpret Paul in Romans 6?

Besides--Paul was a master of the scriptures--he didn't fail to recognize what the scriptures testify to:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[Theo1689]

Paul's point in Romans 4 was Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--but under the gospel of grace.

Well, you're simply wrong.
Romans 4:1-8 makes absolutely NO mention of "law", but is speak of "works" in GENERAL. You have to CHANGE it to make it about "the law", to try to twist Scriptures tot fit your Mormonism.


I will simply remind you that Paul had just finished explaining to us in Rom. 3:19-20 that NOBODY can keep the "Law of Moses".

Now you would have us believe that God switched out the Mosaic Law for some OTHER set of "works" that are required for salvation. Not only is that NOWHERE found in the text, but it poses a problem:

1) Is this new "set of works" more STRINGENT than the Mosaic Law? If nobody can obey the Mosaic Law, then we have absolutely NO hope of obeying a "higher" law.

2) Is this new "set of works" LESS difficult than the Mosaic Law? If so, does that mean that your God has "dumbed down" and God's Holiness will accept something less than perfect?


Further, Paul writes in Eph 2:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Are "works of the law" the only works that man can "boast" for doing?
Of course not. ANY works that we do, is a cause of "boasting".
So according to Paul, the "works" that he excludes from being salvific is NOT limited to the Mosaic Law.

And even closer to the context of Rom. 4:6 is the following:

Rom. 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Clearly Paul is condemning (as salvific) works in GENERAL, not merely the "works of the Law".


So you are clearly wrong.

Paul differentiated between works(rituals of the Mosaic Law) and obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Um, I hate to break this to you, but "the commandments of God" is a reference to THE MOSAIC LAW.

 

[Our Lord's God]

I have a question for the board:

Is this an example of those who believe that their performance will give them some sort of "right standing" with the Lord, or those who believe their self righteousness will give them a right standing with the Lord?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

True believers do not do their own works which are filthy rags. Rather they do the works of God which He prepares, works which are the righteousness of God.

 

[UncleAbee]

Christianity: believers do works BECAUSE they are saved.

I think it's both. Christians do works because they are saved (Eph 2:10) and to be saved (Phil 2:12, Heb 5:9).

 

[Theo1689]

I think it's both. Christians do works because they are saved (Eph 2:10) and to be saved (Phil 2:12, Heb 5:9).

Phil. 2:13 tells us that it is GOD who works in us.... He is the source of our saving works.

And Heb. 5:9 doesn't teach that we do works "to be saved" (which would be contrary to Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:4-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.), it doesn't teach "causation" but rather CORRELATION.

 

[UncleAbee]

Well, you're simply wrong.
Romans 4:1-8 makes absolutely NO mention of "law", but is speak of "works" in GENERAL. You have to CHANGE it to make it about "the law", to try to twist Scriptures tot fit your Mormonism.

The works in Rom 4:1-8 is works of the law or the Mosaic law. Paul uses "works of the law" in chapters 2 and 3. He shortens the phrase to "works" in chapter 4. Paul distinguishing between faith and "works of the law" in ch 3. Paul goes on in ch 4 to say how Abraham is justified by faith and not by works (the same works as in ch 3). Below is the setup further described.

Rom 3:20 - For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight,
Rom 3:28 - For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 4:2-3 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

I will simply remind you that Paul had just finished explaining to us in Rom. 3:19-20 that NOBODY can keep the "Law of Moses".

That's not what it is saying. Paul is saying in those verses that no one is justified by the law. Why would God give a law that no one could keep? That would not make sense. Plenty of Jews kept the law. Amongst these Jews who did so were the Pharisees (Matt 5:20.) Paul also kept the law before he became a follower of Jesus as he himself describes in Phil 3:5-6. Paul also mentions the Pharisees in those verses as ones who kept the law.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

IMO this verse is giving the "why" of salvation and not the "how" of salvation. Jesus clearly states in Luke 13:3 that no one will be saved absent repentance. There is no mention of repentance in Eph 2:8. Repentance is clearly a work commanded by God that we must do. The problem with Eph 2:8 is that most read it without reading the context (vs's 1-7). Vs's 1 - 7 sets up vs 8. Those verses discuss how the Ephesians were once sinners following after the world. Even though they did this God found it in His grace to save them. There is no mention in these verses of repentance or confession both of which Jesus and Paul ties to salvation in other bible verses. Repentance and confession is the "how." Eph 2:1-8 is discussing the "why."

Are "works of the law" the only works that man can "boast" for doing?
Of course not. ANY works that we do, is a cause of "boasting".
So according to Paul, the "works" that he excludes from being salvific is NOT limited to the Mosaic Law.

And even closer to the context of Rom. 4:6 is the following:

Rom. 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Clearly Paul is condemning (as salvific) works in GENERAL, not merely the "works of the Law".


So you are clearly wrong.

One more item on Rom ch 4. The argument that Paul is countering is that to be justified by God one has to keep the OT law most importantly circumcision. Paul is showing that Abraham was justified before the OT law was given. If this is the case then justification cannot come by the law. It comes by faith. This further proves that the "works" in Rom 4 is works of the law. You can't generalize the passage and extend the works to all works. It's not what Paul was talking about.

Rom 4:4 is a curious passage because Jesus had lots of good things to say about works (Matt 5:16, Mark 8:34, Matt 7:21, etc). Paul cannot be downplaying good works commanded by Christ. What Paul is saying in the passage is saying is that those who rely on their own works (self-righteous) will not be justified. This is the same as what Jesus was saying about prayer in Matt 6:5-6. Self-righteous prayer gets you nothing. Note that in Matt 6:5 Jesus says "they have received their reward" due to their public showing off of prayer. This is the same language Paul uses in Rom 4:4 when he says "his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due." Paul is saying in Rom 4:4 that those who work in a self righteous way receive an earthly reward and not a heavenly one. Paul is not saying that works are unnecessary to salvation lest he contradicts himself in Rom 2:6-11.

 

[Tercon]

I have a question for the board:

Is this an example of those who believe that their performance will give them some sort of "right standing" with the Lord, or those who believe their self righteousness will give them a right standing with the Lord?

1 John 1:7----King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--is one practicing "self righteousness" if they believe walking in His light--will result in the Blood of Jesus Christ --unto the "cleanseth us from all sin."

Actually if we are walking in the same light and that same light being the truth found in believing as Christ believed in the reality of God, then we too have fellowship one with another in the reality of God.