Setting the Record Straight on Psalm 12

JDS

Well-known member
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Psa 12:1 To the chief musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David. Help LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from the children of men.

Psalm 12 is first and foremost a prophecy. It is a prophecy that has not been fulfilled. It has not come to pass yet. It is too early to judge whether the KJV only believers have it right. One must wait until the prophecy is fulfilled to see if it is true. The reason for my making this claim is because of what God says about his prophets. Read it here;

Deut 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Now, David says that the word of God will be tried in the furnace of earth seven times. This is a reference to the time of Jacob's trouble, the tribulation period, the time God has reserved to purge Israel of her unbelievers and purify the nation through the fires of the great tribulation just before establishing his throne in Jerusalem over Israel and the nations. Those nations will also be purged of all rebels against God at this same time. It is the day of the Lord judgements.

So we cannot be as sure about how God is going to manifest this prophecy because we are looking through a glass darkly. But one thing is dead sure. When all is said and done it will be crystal clear that these words are to be understood literally. The problem, the unbelievers will not be around to see it fulfilled.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the final judgement when this prophecy will come to pass. It is filled with one of God's favorite numbers. The number 7. There are 49 sets of sevens in the Revelation. Seven times seven, the number of complete things. The words of God that have been spoken in the Law and the Prophets, and the Psalms regarding his rising from his Father's throne, where he now sits waiting for the Father's time of restitution of all things, to deal with Satan's man of sin, the other person in Psalm 12, who is a blowhard, and put an end to him.

Right now, I am just going to believe the words of God, when all is finished, will be purified seven times and we will see it clearly. We will need all the words of God in order to make that determination. KJV only believers will be vindicated for having believed that God preserved all his words in a single book at that time and that leaving out 55,000 words + by optimizing it and condensing it and still calling it the word of God was really not a good idea at all.

There is still time to repent if you are one who mishandles the word of God and teaches others so.

Psalm 12

1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.​
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Psa 12:1 To the chief musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David. Help LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from the children of men.

Psalm 12 is first and foremost a prophecy. It is a prophecy that has not been fulfilled. It has not come to pass yet. It is too early to judge whether the KJV only believers have it right. One must wait until the prophecy is fulfilled to see if it is true. The reason for my making this claim is because of what God says about his prophets. Read it here;

Deut 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Now, David says that the word of God will be tried in the furnace of earth seven times. This is a reference to the time of Jacob's trouble, the tribulation period, the time God has reserved to purge Israel of her unbelievers and purify the nation through the fires of the great tribulation just before establishing his throne in Jerusalem over Israel and the nations. Those nations will also be purged of all rebels against God at this same time. It is the day of the Lord judgements.

So we cannot be as sure about how God is going to manifest this prophecy because we are looking through a glass darkly. But one thing is dead sure. When all is said and done it will be crystal clear that these words are to be understood literally. The problem, the unbelievers will not be around to see it fulfilled.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the final judgement when this prophecy will come to pass. It is filled with one of God's favorite numbers. The number 7. There are 49 sets of sevens in the Revelation. Seven times seven, the number of complete things. The words of God that have been spoken in the Law and the Prophets, and the Psalms regarding his rising from his Father's throne, where he now sits waiting for the Father's time of restitution of all things, to deal with Satan's man of sin, the other person in Psalm 12, who is a blowhard, and put an end to him.

Right now, I am just going to believe the words of God, when all is finished, will be purified seven times and we will see it clearly. We will need all the words of God in order to make that determination. KJV only believers will be vindicated for having believed that God preserved all his words in a single book at that time and that leaving out 55,000 words + by optimizing it and condensing it and still calling it the word of God was really not a good idea at all.

There is still time to repent if you are one who mishandles the word of God and teaches others so.

Psalm 12

1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.​

The KJV added 55,000 plus words to the Scripture.....

1611 KJV
Rev 22:18 For I testifie vnto euery man that heareth the wordes of the prophesie of this booke, If any man shal adde vnto these things, God shall adde vnto him the plagues, that are written in this booke.

Eze 13:3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe vnto the foolish prophets, that follow their owne spirit, and haue seene nothing.

Lam 3:37 Who is hee that sayth, and it commeth to passe, when the Lord commandeth it not?

It is rather sad that you would turn a prophecy about the Lord Jesus Christ into your own idol of KJVOism......

There is only ONE proper interpretation and you've gotten it horribly wrong.


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Notice the "name"........

Why have you take the Glory of such a thing and given it to some translation of men your worship?
 

logos1560

Well-known member
Now, David says that the word of God will be tried in the furnace of earth seven times.

That is not what is stated. Your statement suggests that you are misunderstanding or misinterpreting the verse so that would not be setting the record straight. It is silver that is "tried in a furnace of earth" (Psalm 12:6). The verse did not say that the word of God will be tried in a furnace of earth. The verse clearly stated "the words of the LORD are pure words", and then it gives a simile [as] to illustrate the purity of the words of the LORD. You are avoiding or omitting the important word "as."

The truth that is stated in Psalm 12:6 is the fact that "the words of the LORD are pure words" meaning 100% absolutely and wholly pure. Pure used in the particular context of describing the quality of the words of the LORD given to the prophets and apostles would clearly be asserting 100% absolute, complete purity or perfection with no mixture of any impurities at all.

After the assertion of fact, then an illustration, simile, or comparison is given [as] to confirm that truth, not to contradict it by suggesting that there were some impurities in the pure words given to the prophets and apostles. Thus, the phrase "purified seven times" (Ps. 12:6) actually stated clearly concerning silver on earth is used to illustrate and affirm that the words of the LORD are 100% wholly, absolutely, completely, and perfectly pure when given by inspiration of God. This phrase about the refining or purification of silver obviously and clearly would not contradict the earlier assertion or statement of fact. That phrase does not indicate or assert that the words of the LORD are mostly pure or almost pure with a few impurities, defects, faults, corruptions, errors, or contaminants mixed in so that they needed to go through a gradual improvement or refining process of seven purifications in seven English translations or in seven purifications in the various editions of the KJV.

Words of the LORD asserted to be wholly and completely pure in the positive or absolute degree could not be made purer; therefore, they would not have any impurities that need to be removed during a claimed purification process. Thus, the quality of being completely pure and completely free from all impurities that is asserted concerning the words of the LORD could not be increased. Nothing can be asserted to be purer than what is already 100% absolutely pure according to the meaning of pure used in the context. Pure in the positive degree would simply make a true assertion concerning what is described as being pure, and it does not compare it to other things. Pure is clearly not used in a comparative degree concerning the 100% absolutely and completely pure and perfect words of the LORD. The word of the LORD is perfect (Ps. 19:7). Pure words of the LORD have the very same absolute, complete purity as very pure words (Ps. 119:140). The use of “very” would emphasize the fact of absolute purity, but it could not increase the purity of words that are already 100% wholly and absolutely pure.
 
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JDS

Well-known member
The KJV added 55,000 plus words to the Scripture.....

One gentleman said to me, the KJV is a "formal" equivalence translation, and many are "dynamic" equivalence translations, and some others are optimal equivalence translations. What is your favorite version where you are learning all these things about God? And where did you learn that translating all God's words is a bad thing and is adding 55,000 words to what he said?

Your reasoning is confusing.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
One gentleman said to me, the KJV is a "formal" equivalence translation, and many are "dynamic" equivalence translations, and some others are optimal equivalence translations. What is your favorite version where you are learning all these things about God? And where did you learn that translating all God's words is a bad thing and is adding 55,000 words to what he said?

Your reasoning is confusing.

My reasoning is sound. You said that the modern translation takes away and I say they add. That is a logical counter-argument. You provided no evidence to prove modern translation take away anything.

Why are you ignoring the remainder of your argument that responded to?

You tried to provide evidence for those claims and I robbed you of your argument with what the KJV says itself. Is that why you're ignoring my response?
 

JDS

Well-known member
That is not what is stated. You are misunderstanding or misinterpreting the verse. It is silver that is "tried in a furnace of earth" (Psalm 12:6). The verse did not say that the word of God will be tried in a furnace of earth. The verse clearly stated "the words of the LORD are pure words", and that is gives a simile [as] to illustrate the purity of the words of the LORD. You are avoiding or omitting the important word "as."
Silver is not purified 7 times but it is purified in intense heat to purify it. Always, in every prophetic book, the end for Israel is to be purified through the intense persecution of the man of sin and the promises God has made to them in this fire will be tested, probably with 7 different attempts against them. They will need to believe the words then and the heat will prove them true.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

This man in Psa 12 is puffing at them, and boasts great things against them and try to eliminate them by death. God has promised he will preserve them who trust in him. He has made many promised concerning these days in books like the psalms, which they will actually sing in those days.

Matt 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It is worse times than the flood.
 

JDS

Well-known member
My reasoning is sound. You said that the modern translation takes away and I say they add. That is a logical counter-argument. You provided no evidence to prove modern translation take away anything.

Why are you ignoring the remainder of your argument that responded to?

You tried to provide evidence for those claims and I robbed you of your argument with what the KJV says itself. Is that why you're ignoring my response?
Have it your way. I have told you the truth. That is all I can do.
 

JDS

Well-known member
That is not what is stated. Your statement suggests that you are misunderstanding or misinterpreting the verse so that would not be setting the record straight. It is silver that is "tried in a furnace of earth" (Psalm 12:6). The verse did not say that the word of God will be tried in a furnace of earth. The verse clearly stated "the words of the LORD are pure words", and then it gives a simile [as] to illustrate the purity of the words of the LORD. You are avoiding or omitting the important word "as."

The truth that is stated in Psalm 12:6 is the fact that "the words of the LORD are pure words" meaning 100% absolutely and wholly pure. Pure used in the particular context of describing the quality of the words of the LORD given to the prophets and apostles would clearly be asserting 100% absolute, complete purity or perfection with no mixture of any impurities at all.

For the purpose of learning, Let’s just remove the simile, encapsuled with commas, and see what is said.

The words of the LORD are pure words, purified seven times.

The generation that sees these words of deliverance actually come to fulfillment are the same ones who pray for help in verse i because of the wicked mocker whose words are an attempt to cause them fear and distress.

I am right about this Psalm. It is okay to make spiritual applications in any verse in the scriptures, if you do not compromise the prophetic nature and the correct literal application. This Psalm is a song of and to Israel. That must be noted and accepted.
 
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glenlogie

Well-known member
The words of the LORD are pure words, purified seven times.

In other words you believe that God could not get it correct the first time.
To promote the doctrine of KJVO, you throw God's omniscience under the bus.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
For the purpose of learning, Let’s just remove the simile, encapsuled with commas, and see what is said.

The words of the LORD are pure words, purified seven times.
ROFL!
Punctuation marks did not come into use until the Renaissance!

(Why do I bother? The KJVO-ists compare themselves to themselves, and find they are perfect 🙄)


--Rich
 

JDS

Well-known member
ROFL!
Punctuation marks did not come into use until the Renaissance!

(Why do I bother? The KJVO-ists compare themselves to themselves, and find they are perfect 🙄)


--Rich
What do you teach from the text? It has eight verses. What does the LORD want us to take away from the text, according to you?
 

JDS

Well-known member
The people on this forum who oppose an every word testimony of God in an English translation take issue with bible believers who believe that the words of God are pure words. I know this because most of the modern versions do not use the word pure in their Psalm 12 translations. The modern translations better expresses their own beliefs it seems.

Now I believe the statement in Psalm 12, verse 6 is absolutely true and would be true wherever God wanted to insert it in his KJV Bible, no matter the context. This is how men must come to the scriptures. But in Psalm 12 he has said this to comfort the poor and oppressed in a context of a particular generation of his people, Israel, that is facing extinction as a people by a Satanic man of sin who is fully focused on doing that very thing.

If I asked the reader where he thinks Jesus Christ is at the very time he is reading this, then those who have an accurate enough translation that informs them would answer that Jesus Christ the Lord is presently sitting on the Fathers throne in heaven and has been seated there since shortly after his resurrection. They would believe this because the words of the scriptures says that is where he is. The scripture even tells us how long he will sit there and why he will arise from the throne of his Father. Believing the words will become extremely important if you are to understand this.

The prophets of Israel foretell this and prophecies that Jesus will arise from the Fathers throne in the nick of time to save Israel from a destroying army that has encompassed Jerusalem. This is the day of the Lord judgement and it is a theme of the prophets. David is a prophet. While the pure words of God are preserved and God is going to do what he promised when he said them, it is repentant Israel, the remnant who is left, which will be but a few in number, whom he will rescue and preserve from this generation and forever, the generation that sees this fulfilled. There will be little to no more death in Israel after this salvation.

David speaks for the people of God in Psalm 12 and prays for help after the rapture of the church when men of faith are taken away leaving only unsaved people in the beginning of this tribulation week of years. He speaks about flattering talk, But the Lord speaks verse 5 of the Psalm and tells us what he will do. He says he will arise and answer the prayer of the people who are praying for help. The word 'arise' is the operative word for determining the historical context and the number seven, the word for complete things, sends us to Revelation, where there are seven judgements that destroys all the unsaved from off the earth and leaves only those who repented and follows Jesus Christ in the tribulation time. (See Matt 25 and the judgement of the nations for clarification)

There are multitudes of places in the KJV where this theme could be shown to be true but I will just give one for now.. read it and ask the Lord to help you process it.

Acts 2:
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
__________

Acts 3:
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

May the LORD be glorified for his glorious salvation through his people Israel and his son Jesus Christ.
 

JDS

Well-known member
My comments are ment to point out the arro of the KJVOs
Key words are omitted in Psalm 12. How am I going to know that Israel, who are alive when Jesus arises from his seat on the throne of the Father in heaven, are going to be preserved and continue forever if I do not have the word generation and the Psalmist saying it?

Here is what the NIV says.

“Because the poor are plundered and the needy groan,
I will now arise,” says the Lord.
“I will protect them from those who malign them.”
6 And the words of the Lord are flawless,
like silver purified in a crucible,
like gold[c] refined seven times.
7 You, Lord, will keep the needy safe
and will protect us forever from the wicked,
8 who freely strut about
when what is vile is honored by the human race.

The words the LORD spoke in this psalm is in verse 6. They are pure words. They are a promise that he will arise and protect them. It is this particular generation of Israel that he speaks of. I cannot gather that in the NIV because the words do not lean to informing me of that truth.

Here is just something Jesus said when he was in his last week on the earth. Whether you believe it is up to you. I am just the messenger.

KJV
Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be (future tense) shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The NIV says something similar.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short (past tense), no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

I remind you that the flood that destroyed all but 8 people is included as being less troubling than these days Jesus is predicting.

There is lots in scriptures about this deliverance. I would go with the KJV if I really wanted to know. They are pure words and I cannot say that for most other versions.
 
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JDS

Well-known member
I am not implying anything. I am clearly stating that the NIV is not the pure words of God and is not the truth. I have not denied or implied that other versions do not have a verse 6. Why would you say that?
 
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