Seventh-Day Adventists are NOT Christians!

Twisting Bible Prophecy
There is absolutely no valid biblical basis for this bizarre doctrine. As pointed out earlier, it is based upon a misinterpretation and misapplication of Daniel 8:14. The prophecy concerns the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes (215-164 BC). It refers to a restoration of “the holy place” after it has been “trampled.” This occurred when Antiochus took Jerusalem in 167 BC and stopped the sacrifices in the Temple. This led to the Maccabean revolt which succeeded in reconquering Jerusalem. In 164 BC the Jews cleansed and rededicated the Temple. Hanukkah is the eight day festival celebrating this event.
Applying this prophecy to the Heavenly sanctuary is ridiculous. Since when has the Holy of Holies in Heaven ever been defiled or trampled down? Since when has it needed to be restored?
The prophecy also refers to a time period during which the “holy place” will remain desecrated. That time period is “2,300 evenings and mornings.” The King James version translates this to read “2,300 days.” William Miller converted these days into years. SDA teachers defend this conversion on the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 where prophets were specifically told to interpret days in their prophecies as years. But those verses have no application to Daniel 8:14.
Perverting the Atonement
More significant is the fact that the whole concept of “investigative judgment” is unbiblical and contrary to the true Gospel as revealed in the New Testament. Jesus entered the Holy of Holies in Heaven immediately after His Ascension, and not in 1844 (Hebrews 1:3, 6:19-20, 8:1, 9:6-12, 24 and 12:2). His atoning work is not continuing in Heaven. It was finished on the Cross (John 19:30 and Romans 3:24-26). Jesus is currently serving as our High Priest before the Father’s throne (Hebrews 8:1-2).
Further, the Bible teaches that a believer’s sins are both forgiven and forgotten (Hebrews 8:12). Believers will never be subjected to a judgment of their works to determine their salvation (John 5:24 and Hebrews 9:28). There is no condemnation for the person who has placed his or her faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior (Romans 8:1). The believer can be assured of salvation (1 John 5:13). As believers walk in faith, they experience a continual cleansing of sin by the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7).
The concept of an “investigative judgment” is a blasphemy of the blood of Jesus because it asserts that His death on the Cross was insufficient to guarantee a believer’s salvation. Instead, Jesus must continue His atoning work by evaluating the works of each believer.
This whole concept is nothing but a thinly veiled form of works salvation. Think of it — the SDA member is taught that he can never be sure of his salvation until the judgment work of Jesus is completed and he is certified as one whose works validate his salvation. Here’s how Ellen White put it:
“Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their character must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.”23
How could a true prophet of God speak such unbiblical words? The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Ellen White says salvation is by grace plus our own “diligent effort.” The Bible says Jesus will never cease being a believer’s mediator (Hebrews 7:25). Ellen White says that when believers stand before God to be judged, they will be “without a mediator.”
The bottom line regarding the pernicious doctrine of the “investigative judgment” is that it represents a desperate attempt to salvage an incorrect prophecy. William Miller was a sincere Baptist preacher who misinterpreted a biblical passage and inappropriately used it to set a date for the Lord’s return. When his prophecy failed, he took responsibility for his mistake and repented for all the grief and embarrassment he had caused. But his error led to the rise of a true false prophet who spiritualized Miller’s prophecy and then used that spiritualization to manufacture a doctrine that is alien to the Word of God. https://christinprophecy.org/.../the-seventh-day-adventists/
 
The time was right. America was hot with discussions on the return of Christ. As a result, many thousands (called Millerites) accepted his idea that Jesus would return in the year covering 1843-1844. He had arrived at this date based upon a study of Daniel 8:14 which says, "And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored." He interpreted the 2300 evenings and mornings to be years and counted forward from 457 BC when the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem was given (Dan. 9:24-25).1 When his initial predictions failed, he adjusted his findings to conclude that Jesus would return on March 21, 1844, and then later on October 22, 1844. After these too failed, Miller quit promoting his ideas on Jesus' return and the "Millerites" broke up.
On the morning following the "Great Disappointment" of October 22, 1844, a Mr. Hiram Edson claimed to have seen a vision. He said that he saw Jesus standing at the altar of heaven and concluded that Miller had been right about the time, but wrong about the place. In other words, Jesus' return was not to earth, but a move into the heavenly sanctuary as is referenced in Heb. 8:1-2.
Mr. Joseph Bates (1792-1872), a retired sea captain and a convert to "Millerism" then began to promote the idea of Jesus moving into the heavenly sanctuary. He published a pamphlet which greatly influenced James (1821-1881) and Ellen White (1827-1915). It is these three who were the driving force behind the SDA movement. Numerous reports state that Ellen G. White (1827-1915) saw visions from an early age. Such was the case shortly after the Great Disappointment. Mrs. White claimed to see in a vision of a narrow path where an angel was guiding Adventists. Subsequent visions resulted in interpretations of the three angels in Rev. 14:6-11 as being 1843-1844 as the hour of God's judgment; the fall of Babylon signified by Adventists leaving various churches, and admonitions against Sunday worship. https://carm.org/.../history-seventh-day-adventist-church
 
CARM cannot recommend any church which would openly deny the biblical doctrine of predestination (in contradiction to Eph. 1:1-11), deny the doctrine of the immortality of the soul (in contradiction to Luke 16:19-31; Matt. 25:46), and deny eternal hellfire (in contradiction to Rev. 14:11). Nor can we recommend a church that affirms that Jesus is Michael the Archangel,1 and that the wicked are annihilated (in contradiction to Luke 16:19-31; Matt. 25:46).
1.The SDA church says that Jesus, as Michael the Archangel in the Old Testament, was not a created being as orthodox theology states of Michael the Archangel. Instead, the SDA church interprets the appearance of Michael the Archangel as the pre-incarnate Christ. https://carm.org/.../does-carm-recommend-seventh-day...
 

Buzzard

Active member

tdickensheets;​

I read thru the article you linked to;
enternet sites are not a good place to go for Truth;
they like other articles written are always skewed by the opinions of the author
Opinion are like my armpits, we all have 2, and they both stink;
my self included

the last week teaching in the Temple

Matt. 21:23
And when he was come into the temple,
the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching,
and said,
By what authority doest thou these things?
and
who gave thee this authority?

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me,
I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things
.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it?
from heaven, or of men?
And they reasoned with themselves,
saying,
If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us,
Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men;
we fear the people;
for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus,
and said, We cannot tell.
And he said unto them,
Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.


Now Christ gets right to the Point

28 But what think ye?
A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first,

and said,
Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said,
I will not: but afterward he repented, and went
.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise.

And he answered and said,
I go, sir: and went not.

Now the Question is;
which one of the 2 did the will of the Father ????

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father?

They say unto him, The first.

So; tdickensheets;
Who are these Two (2) Sons Christ spake of
;;
But what think ye?
A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first,
and said, .........................
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
CARM cannot recommend any church which would openly deny the biblical doctrine of predestination (in contradiction to Eph. 1:1-11), deny the doctrine of the immortality of the soul (in contradiction to Luke 16:19-31; Matt. 25:46), and deny eternal hellfire (in contradiction to Rev. 14:11). Nor can we recommend a church that affirms that Jesus is Michael the Archangel,1 and that the wicked are annihilated (in contradiction to Luke 16:19-31; Matt. 25:46).
1.The SDA church says that Jesus, as Michael the Archangel in the Old Testament, was not a created being as orthodox theology states of Michael the Archangel. Instead, the SDA church interprets the appearance of Michael the Archangel as the pre-incarnate Christ. https://carm.org/.../does-carm-recommend-seventh-day...
So you can Cut-N-Paste CARM statements, that is being an apologist of other people's opinions.

Are you prepared to defend these CARM statements in this forum ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

BigAlanM

Member
Twisting Bible Prophecy
There is absolutely no valid biblical basis for this bizarre doctrine. As pointed out earlier, it is based upon a misinterpretation and misapplication of Daniel 8:14. The prophecy concerns the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes (215-164 BC). It refers to a restoration of “the holy place” after it has been “trampled.” This occurred when Antiochus took Jerusalem in 167 BC and stopped the sacrifices in the Temple. This led to the Maccabean revolt which succeeded in reconquering Jerusalem. In 164 BC the Jews cleansed and rededicated the Temple. Hanukkah is the eight day festival celebrating this event.
Applying this prophecy to the Heavenly sanctuary is ridiculous. Since when has the Holy of Holies in Heaven ever been defiled or trampled down? Since when has it needed to be restored?
The prophecy also refers to a time period during which the “holy place” will remain desecrated. That time period is “2,300 evenings and mornings.” The King James version translates this to read “2,300 days.” William Miller converted these days into years. SDA teachers defend this conversion on the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 where prophets were specifically told to interpret days in their prophecies as years. But those verses have no application to Daniel 8:14.
Perverting the Atonement
More significant is the fact that the whole concept of “investigative judgment” is unbiblical and contrary to the true Gospel as revealed in the New Testament. Jesus entered the Holy of Holies in Heaven immediately after His Ascension, and not in 1844 (Hebrews 1:3, 6:19-20, 8:1, 9:6-12, 24 and 12:2). His atoning work is not continuing in Heaven. It was finished on the Cross (John 19:30 and Romans 3:24-26). Jesus is currently serving as our High Priest before the Father’s throne (Hebrews 8:1-2).
Further, the Bible teaches that a believer’s sins are both forgiven and forgotten (Hebrews 8:12). Believers will never be subjected to a judgment of their works to determine their salvation (John 5:24 and Hebrews 9:28). There is no condemnation for the person who has placed his or her faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior (Romans 8:1). The believer can be assured of salvation (1 John 5:13). As believers walk in faith, they experience a continual cleansing of sin by the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7).
The concept of an “investigative judgment” is a blasphemy of the blood of Jesus because it asserts that His death on the Cross was insufficient to guarantee a believer’s salvation. Instead, Jesus must continue His atoning work by evaluating the works of each believer.
This whole concept is nothing but a thinly veiled form of works salvation. Think of it — the SDA member is taught that he can never be sure of his salvation until the judgment work of Jesus is completed and he is certified as one whose works validate his salvation. Here’s how Ellen White put it:
“Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their character must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.”23
How could a true prophet of God speak such unbiblical words? The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Ellen White says salvation is by grace plus our own “diligent effort.” The Bible says Jesus will never cease being a believer’s mediator (Hebrews 7:25). Ellen White says that when believers stand before God to be judged, they will be “without a mediator.”
The bottom line regarding the pernicious doctrine of the “investigative judgment” is that it represents a desperate attempt to salvage an incorrect prophecy. William Miller was a sincere Baptist preacher who misinterpreted a biblical passage and inappropriately used it to set a date for the Lord’s return. When his prophecy failed, he took responsibility for his mistake and repented for all the grief and embarrassment he had caused. But his error led to the rise of a true false prophet who spiritualized Miller’s prophecy and then used that spiritualization to manufacture a doctrine that is alien to the Word of God. https://christinprophecy.org/.../the-seventh-day-adventists/
First of all, I'd like to say that saying Adventism isn't Christian is a fallacy, you haven't read their doctrine or only read the parts you wanted to or have a problem with. Secondly, every denomination, by definition, has error, because they all believe differently. Adventism is no different, and there is certainly a lot of hard questions to be answered about the investigative judgment doctrine, but there are some intriguing passages in Leviticus involving the day of atonement, which is a type of future events from that era, that it explains, especially when combined with Christ as our High priest in Hebrews. This doctrine doesn't say Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient, just that it gets applied to each one. We are saved individually after all. Interestingly, most of Christianity teaches serious error as far as I can see, when they say you will burn in hell forever for a few years of sins. Besides the fact that it makes God some kind of evil ogre you can't possibly love, it makes the sacrifice of Jesus insufficient. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Dead. As in no more life. It doesn't say the wages of sin is eternally burning hell. And indeed it couldn't possibly be, because then if Jesus was to pay the price for our sins He would have to burn in hell eternally. I'm pretty sure that's not happening.....Christians can't have it both ways. If there is an eternal hell, then we are lost. Priests and pastors aren't allowed to scare you into the church by painting God as some kind of monster, then extract all the money they can from you with some bogus tithing system, then tell you it's all okay because Jesus is a nice guy who died to pay the price for your sins....except (shhhhhh...He really didn't, God let Him off easy). Every denomination has error my friends. That doesn't make them bad, or non Christian. I'm a former Catholic, now I'm an Adventist, and I don't believe everything my church teaches. But I study the Bible for myself, and I'm here till God shows me something that I believe makes more sense from His word.
 

BigAlanM

Member
Christians are amazed to learn that SDA teaches that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, but Ellen G. White said He was Michael
It's not a question of what Ellen White says, but what Scripture says. To me it's pretty clear that Michael (which can be interpreted ("one like God") and Christ are the same Being. In John 5:25, Jesus said "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." In 1 The. 4:16 we read that "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;" So here either Jesus is doing the shouting as the Archangel, or the archangel is shouting for him. I should point out here, archangel doesn't mean angel, it means "Leader of the angels". Nowhere in Scripture does it say Jesus is an angel, and I certainly don't believe that. Green's literal translation of the text in Thessalonians reads "the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet, and the dead in Christ will rise again first." That clarifies the meaning a bit I think. Further, Young's literal translation is even clearer...."the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first." I think from these texts, the indication is that Christ is the Leader of the angels (Archangel) and calls the dead forth as only He can. Further, there is an interesting account in the OT between Joshua and the Captain of the Lord's host (or archangel). Jos 5:13-15 - And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: And Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay, as the captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, AND DID WORSHIP, and said unto him, what saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place whereon thou standest is holy, and Joshua did so. This "captain of the Lord's host" (or Lord's angels) is not an angel, but our Lord. He accepted Joshua's worship, even encouraged it, and no angel would do so. He is identified as our Lord firmly in the beginning of the next chapter. So the leader of the angels (or archangel) here, is the pre-incarnate Christ. Another interesting text, in Daniel 12:1, where "Michael stands up" and there will be "a time of trouble like there never was" followed by the people being delivered, would seem to indicate this MIchael is very much holding the destiny of the world in His hands. Seems a bit much for an angel, even an important one like say, Gabriel. There are other, lesser indications, such as Michal and Jesus both being referred to as prices in Daniel. It could be that this may be inconclusive to some; that's fine, it's not a salvation issue IMO. Neither side believes Christ is a created being, or an angel (not speaking for Jehovah's witnesses here, only myself). EGW aside, I think the Scriptural weight favors Michael, One who is like God, being the Archangel, or Leader of the angel armies. At any rate, I'd be reluctant to condemn such a belief, as CARM seems to.
 

John t

Super Member
First of all, I'd like to say that saying Adventism isn't Christian is a fallacy, you haven't read their doctrine or only read the parts you wanted to or have a problem with.

This glibly dismisses all of the 28 Fundamental beliefs, which if carefully examined in their entirety present issues with Scripture, or contradict other SDA beliefs.

No matter how slickly they say it, they can't get around the fact that the words of Ellen are superior to those of Scripture. As a matter of record, she stated much medical quackery in her "health" edicts. Her "theology" is a "salvation-by-food gospel", having no basis in Scripture. Nor will any SDA mention "unmerited grace" because their church is founded on slavish adherence to the rules of Ellen. She is the "measure by which one's salvation is judged".

If you do not believe that is so, watch the upcoming retorts which make judgment on my attendance at my church on Sunday, or something similarity stupid.

Big, I suspect that you call yourself a SDA because you have failed to examine the "references" they give to support their heresies.

Please look at this, and read the Scriptures they claim support their aberrant beliefs. Then ask yourself if the Scriptures actually support Ellen? By that, I do not mean PARTS that can be stretched, , but instead, does the Scripture point to Christ or to a cataleptic (a form of schizophrenia) woman in the 19th century


Gift of Prophecy – Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental Belief 18​



One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Joel 2:
25 I will repay you the years​
that the locust has eaten,​
the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter,​
my mighty troops that I sent against you.​
26 And you will eat abundantly and be satisfied,​
and praise the name of Yahweh your God,​
who has dealt with you ⌞wondrously⌟.​
My people ⌞will never be ashamed⌟.​
27 And you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,​
and I am Yahweh,​
your God, and there is no other.​
My people ⌞will never be ashamed again⌟.​

Hebrews 1:

1 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, 2 in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, 3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power. When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become by so much better than the angels, by as much as he has inherited a more excellent name than theirs.​
28 And it will happen afterward thus:​
I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,​
and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,​
and your elders will dream dreams;​
your young men shall see visions.​
29 And also on the male slaves and on the female slaves,​
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.​
30 And I will ⌞set⌟ wonders in the heavens, and on earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun will be changed to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Yahweh. 32 And it will happen—everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be rescued, because on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be ⌞those who escape⌟, as Yahweh said, and among the survivors whom Yahweh is calling.​

Acts 2:
11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own languages the great deeds of God!” 12 And all were amazed and greatly perplexed, saying ⌞to one another⌟, “⌞What can this mean?⌟” 13 But others jeered and said, “They are full of sweet new wine!”​
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them, “Judean men, and all those who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and pay attention to my words! 15 For these men are not drunk, as you assume, because it is the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:​
17 ‘And it will be in the last days,’ God says,​
‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,​
and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,​
and your young men will see visions,​
and your old men will dream dreams.​
18 And even on my male slaves and on my female slaves​
I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.​
19 And I will cause wonders in the heaven above​
and signs on the earth below,​
blood and fire and vapor of smoke.​
20 The sun will be changed to darkness​
and the moon to blood,​
before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.​
21 And it will be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’​

Revelation 12:
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 And the two wings of a great eagle were given to the woman, in order that she could fly into the wilderness, to her place where she is fed there for a time, and times, and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And from his mouth the serpent spouted water like a river after the woman, in order that he could make her swept away by a river. 16 And the earth came to the aid of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon had spouted out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was angry at the woman, and went away to ⌞fight against⌟ the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and who hold to the testimony about Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.​

Revelation 19:
9 And he said to me, “Write: Blessed are those who are invited to the banquet of the wedding celebration of the Lamb!” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” 10 And I fell down before his feet to worship him, and he said to me, “⌞Do not do that!⌟ I am a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”​
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and the one seated on it was called “Faithful” and “True,” and with justice he judges and makes war. 12 Now his eyes were a flame of fire, and on his head were many royal headbands having a name written that no one except he himself knows. 13 And he was dressed in an outer garment dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God. 14 And the armies that are in heaven, dressed in clean, white fine linen, were following him on white horses.​

All from Lexham English Bible
So the ball is in your court, Big. I pasted these so that you could see the entire context of the verses that the SDA claims support Ellen as a "prophet" and that her silly, non Scripture-based rules should be obeyed.

If in your mind they do support the SDA claims, then by all means, stay in the SDA. However, since the SDA Church calls them "fundamentals", and therefore they represent the sine qua non of their beliefs, then this, the most critical of their beliefs needs to be the basis from which you make all other decisions of your further participation in that particular church.
 
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BigAlanM

Member
“The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty”
I love the way her quotes are always taken out of context.

Equal with the Father, honored and adored by the angels, in our behalf Christ humbled Himself, and came to this earth to live a life of lowliness and poverty—to be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Yet the stamp of divinity was upon His humanity. . . .

There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1129, bold added.

That gives a little better picture of what she was trying to say, at least. It is true that the statement can be misconstrued but please, there is no doubt what she believed, or what Adventists believe.

"Look, O look to Jesus and live! You cannot but be charmed with the matchless attractions of the Son of God. Christ was God manifest in the flesh, the mystery hidden for ages, and in our acceptance or rejection of the Saviour of the world are involved eternal interests.—Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 179. (1891)

The world was made by Him, "and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore.—Selected Messages, book 1, p. 247. (1906)"

Don't quote a half sentence out of context and try to misrepresent her beliefs. Anyone who reads a decent portion of her writings knows clearly what she believed about Christ....as clearly as possible, at least, for something none of us fully understands.
 

BigAlanM

Member
However, since the SDA Church calls them "fundamentals", and therefore they represent the sine qua non of their beliefs, then this, the most critical of their beliefs needs to be the basis from which you make all other decisions of your further participation in that particular church.
This is one of 28, hardly the most important. It is easily superseded by how we are saved, the divinity of Christ, the Godhead, the infallibility of God's word, etc. I have to agree with some of your reply. I don't know of any church, including SDA's, which doesn't use the Bible sometimes out of context to back up a doctrine. Don't get me started on eternal hellfire or tithing. So what to make of EGW? I think she can be, and is often, misused and abused by SDA's. There are members who hang on her every word, which to me is a clear mistake. Some elevate her to equality with the Bible, something she would not advocate. She referred to herself as a "lesser light". She is often taken out of context, even more so than God's word. The church itself is guilty of chopping up her writings into little compilations to cater to certain sects within the church. Alas, my friend, no denomination is perfect. This is why God doesn't save denominations. He saves people who are sincere in their relationship with Him. People who love Him, love His word, and understand that we are all sinners struggling to find a way to be more like Him. The reason I have great respect for EGW is that her books have helped me understand God better. More about who He is. More about His love for me and what's He's invested in my redemption. It's all quite simple to me. I think people like to complicate things too much, and are quick to condemn those who don't agree with their conclusions. God bless you on your journey.
 

John t

Super Member
This is one of 28, hardly the most important.
Actually, it is the MOST important. I say that because everything in the SDA is measured by her words. That is what I mean by " sine qua non of their beliefs,". There is no, SDA here, especially one who dares to say anything bad about her.

Like it or not, you cannot be a SDA and jettison Ellen. Nor can anyone say, "Well, she only wrote X things that were stupid and untrue. If it rose to X +1, then I would stop being a SDA."

Please read these words carefully, and more important, please consider what this phrase means: CONTINUING AND AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE OF TRUTH. It is preposterous to say that on one hand, then to say that of the Bible in a subsequent sentence.
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested

BTW, I was correct in my estimation that you would not read the Scriptures I posted because you failed to deal with the fundamental issue of them as supports for FB 18: Do they support what they say about her as a "continuing and authoritative source of truth"? NO WAY, JOSE!

Instead, you only gave your opinion. I give Scripture as a counter to Ellenism

He saves people who are sincere in their relationship with Him. People who love Him, love His word, and understand that we are all sinners struggling to find a way to be more like Him
That is not what Apostle John says:

John 3:16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 1​
7 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​
19 And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds​
were evil.​
John 10:
28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish ⌞forever⌟, and no one will seize them out of my hand.​
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”​

Nor is it what the Apostle Paul says

Romans 9:
16 Consequently therefore, ⌞it does not depend on the⌟ one who wills or on the one who runs, but on God who shows mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”​
18 Consequently therefore, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, and he hardens whomever he wishes.

Romans 11:
5 So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant ⌞selected by grace⌟.​
6 But if by grace, it is no longer by works, for otherwise grace would no longer be grace.​

Galatians 2:
17 But if while seeking to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also have been found to be sinners, then is Christ an agent of sin? May it never be!
18 For if I build up again these things which I destroyed, I show myself to be a transgressor.​
19 For through the law I died to the law, in order that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ,​
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.​
21 I do not declare invalid the grace of God, for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

All from Lexham English Bible

You see, nowhere in the 28 FBs will you see any concept of unmerited grace, nor sovereign election, nor that it is Jesus Christ ONLY Who keeps the saved being saved forever.

These are fundamentals of the faith once given to the Apostles, and Ellen never holds these up as being true. Those are just a few of my many objections to the SDA theology of Ellenism.

Sp please go back over the first Scriptures I gave, asking if they specifically support a single person, namely Ellen. then please go over the second group of Scriptures in this post, and see if Ellen supports them.

BTW
Do you know that Ellen was diagnosed by her physician as having catalepsy? By definition, it is a medical term having schizophrenia as its toot cause. How many prophets in the Bible had such a similar medical diagnosis? You see, (and I am not disparaging anyone with mental illnesses) when you follow Ellen, you are following someone who would be using psychotropic medications today.

I think you may have missed the importance of that earlier.
 

BigAlanM

Member
BTW, I was correct in my estimation that you would not read the Scriptures I posted
No, you are wrong, I read them and replied accordingly, saying all denominations sometime misapply Scripture. You are listening only to yourself.
 

BigAlanM

Member
Like it or not, you cannot be a SDA and jettison Ellen. Nor can anyone say, "Well, she only wrote X things that were stupid and untrue. If it rose to X +1, then I would stop being a SDA."
Wrong again. EGW wrote several things I disagree with. Those things for the most part I choose to keep to myself. I don't believe she was infallible, though some do. She didn't. I do believe she was a servant of God raised up for a specific mission at a specific time, like Martin Luther. Luther was anti-Semitic, yet God used him for a specific purpose at a specific time. I'm SDA because my study agrees with their doctrine more than other denominations. It's that simple. BTW, White didn't teach salvation by diet or anything else ridiculous. She taught salvation by faith in Christ. If you read the body of her work you would know that. A few poorly written clauses or testimonies given to individuals taken out of context doesn't change that. Personally, I don't teach or preach EGW, so I don't care about most of your points. I'm a Sabbath keeping Christian. Again, God doesn't save denominations. He saves people that trust in Him. I think He finds them in just about all Christian denominations.
 

BigAlanM

Member
it is Jesus Christ ONLY Who keeps the saved being saved forever.
What does that mean, that once you invoke Christ you can't be lost? I hope you aren't part of that deception.

John 15:1-6 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. He takes away every branch in me not bearing fruit, and he cleans every one bearing fruit, so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all. If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And men gather those branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

The meaning of your statement isn't completely clear but I hope it's not what it seems to be.
 

pythons

Active member
Big AlanM,

Part 1

You're forgetting to add the question mark at the end of the name meaning....
...Michael's name means, "WHO IS LIKE GOD?" - its a rhetorical question.
...Answer being NO ONE is like God.

And that includes "ONE OF" the multiple Princes that is known as Michael the archangel...
...Thus Michael the archangels name is an affront to Lucifer as it's base meaning is.
...WHO IS LIKE GOD? - Answer is NO ONE IS LIKE GOD;

UNLESS your a Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh-day Adventist than you pour a new meaning into the name....
....And claim its A STATEMENT OF FACT, A STATEMENT OF ACTUAL BEING - of course by loosing the ?
....So it becomes Michael (WHO IS LIKE GOD).

If you ask an Adventist (Jehovah's Witness, SDA, Christadelphian, WWCOG 7th day adherent) 'WHO IS LIKE GOD?" The Adventist is going to wag their hand and say "why Michael, Michael is like God" - which of course is a back handed way of saying Michael ISN'T God - which is the WHOLE POINT OF THE DOCTRINE as is easily confirmed. NOTE THE BOLDED PARTS.

James White, Day Star January 24, 1846
"And it is very important for us to know what for and how to contend. In the 4th verse he gives us the reason why we should contend for THE faith, a particular faith; “for there are certain men,” or a certain class who deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.… The way spiritualizers have disposed of or denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ is first using the old unscriptural Trinitarian creed, viz., that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, though they have not one passage to support it, while we have plain scripture testimony in abundance that he is the Son of the eternal God.

Get it? Michael ISN'T the BEING, GOD According to Adventist Theology.

Sabbath Herald, August 5, 1852
"
We are told by those who teach the abolition of the Father’s law, that the commandments of God mentioned in the New Testament, are not the ten, but the requirements of the gospel, such as repentance, faith, baptism and the Lord’s supper. But as these, and every other requirement peculiar to the gospel, are all embraced in the faith of Jesus, it is evident that the commandments of God are not the sayings of Christ and his apostles. To assert that the sayings of the Son and his apostles are the commandments of the Father, is as wide from the truth as the old trinitarian absurdity that Jesus Christ is the very and Eternal God."

Ellen White, Desire of Ages page 483

However much a shepherd may love his sheep, he loves his sons and daughters more. Jesus is not only our shepherd; He is our “everlasting Father.” And he says, “I know Mine own, and Mine own know Me, even as the Father knoweth Me, and I know the Father.” John 10:14, 15 R.V. What a statement is this!—the only-begotten Son, He who is in the bosom of the Father, He whom God has declared to be “the Man that is My fellow” (Zech. 13:7), --the communion between Him and the eternal God is taken to represent the communion between Christ and His children on the earth!

Sabbath Herald November 14, 1854
Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father ALONE is supremely, or absolutely, good; and that he ALONE is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being.

So, Michael (Christ) ISN'T the eternal God but according to the way Adventists have redefined the meaning of the name Michael is LIKE THE ETERNAL GOD.
 

pythons

Active member
Big AlanM

Part 2

Here is some more in case the meaning isn't clear enough.

Adventist Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878

Bible question to the editor

Q. But does it not say that the Word was God?

A. Yes, and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God of course he is properly called God. This is his name,
but he was NOT THE VERY and ETERNAL God Himself for it says that he was with God

Ellen White, Signs of the Times Sept 14 1882
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God's purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence. .

Like Michael, Lucifer was an "archangel" and in speaking of these chief princes there was ONLY one archangel higher than Lucifer!

Ellen White, Sabbath Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

This should be given time to soak-in - like throwing a loaded crab pot of spoiled chicken out into the bay. Christ ( AKA Michael the archangel ) was THE HIGHEST ANGEL IN HEAVEN and next in line was Lucifer the archangel! Lucifer was a separate Being from "The Eternal God" just like Michael or Christ was a separate Being from the Eternal God.

Sabbath Herald, June 13, 1871
"We invite all to compare THE TESTIMONIES of the Holy Spirit THROUGH Mrs. White with the word of God. And in this we do not invite you to compare them with your creed. That is quite another thing. The TRINITARIAN may compare them with his creed, and because THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, CONDEMN them [ the testimonies of Mrs. White ].

Ellen White, 1888 Great Controversy 493.1
Christ the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.


The "Being" Lucifer the archangel could and DID Sin thereby loosing his salvation....
...The Being Michael the archangel could but didn't sin & loose his salvation.
...The Being "The Eternal God" COULD NOT SIN & LOOSE HIS SALVATION.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian
TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted

Ellen White
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty

In other words Christ, had He sinned, would have had his credentials of Deity pulled by the Eternal God and been left to rot in the tomb.

Ellen White, L5,1900 SDA BC Volume 7,page 926
He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, HIS DIVINE attributes. Satan sought, by the constant and curious devices of his cunning, to make Christ yield to temptation

"IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth
. The Deity of Christ’, paper presented to the Bible Research Fellowship Angwin, California January 1947, page 13 & 14)

As the logic chain proves Michael ISN'T the eternal God but a separate BEING apart from the Eternal God. Michael the archangel is no more Eternal God than Lucifer as the above quotes demonstrate.

ps,
I say these things within the context of the Trinity Doctrine...
..I understand CARM has about as (if not more) dim a view of Catholicism.
...So, in that area, according to CARM, I'm in no better shape than an SDA.
 
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John t

Super Member
No, you are wrong, I read them and replied accordingly, saying all denominations sometime misapply Scripture. You are listening only to yourself.
Then I stand partially corrected. ;)

You chose not to address the Scriptures I quoted, thus your silence on the Scriptures caused me to believe in that manner. Wanna specifically address the scriptures I quoted?

Your bringing in "other denominations" is a derailing tactic, also called a "red herring" because the topic of this sub forum is the SDA church, not "other churches", which is better addressed in the "Apologetics" forum..
 
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