CharismaticLady
Well-known member
As far as "twilight" which day is it connected to? Nissan 13 or 14 (not our calendar)? So is it the beginning of the day, or the end. Can you see the first star in twilight?
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shana tova
- Thread starter Open Heart
- Start date
As far as "twilight" which day is it connected to? Nissan 13 or 14 (not our calendar)? So is it the beginning of the day, or the end. Can you see the first star in twilight?
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Which I have. That's why you don't reply to my posts with questions and responses.
Why do you think you're Sephardic? Because you're Spanish, or because Paul said you were Jewish?
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
The actual seder occurs between the 14th and 15th of Nissan. It doesn't fall on the 13th at all. There's a twilight before sunrise and one at sunset. There is a doubt as to which day the twilight belongs to, so we wait until the time we can see at least 3 stars for the night of the seder. This applies to all nights as well.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
You said it was on the 13th, so you have researched it further?
That is strange because the actual 'passover' of the death angel was after the meal, so would have been on our 13th evening.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
I'm sorry if my answer was confusing. My point was the day of the 14th of Nissan starts at night. A full day consists of a "night and day" cycle.
The pascal lamb is slaughtered during the day of the 14th, and eaten at the end of the 14th/the night of the 15th, eaten along with matzoh on the 15th.
No, please see above.
Open Heart
Well-known member
The 14th starts at sundown. That's what he has been trying to say to you. The evening after the 13th, which would have been the 14th, is the first day of Passove.r
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
No it was killed at twilight, thus my question.
Exodus 12:
6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. 7 And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it.
Open Heart
Well-known member
I tried looking into this. Everyone agreed that the traditions changed over the years -- they weren't the same in Jesus day as they were in Moses day, and they are different today. But I couldn't find anyone who was enough of a scholar to really nail it down for me. All I know is that although the Torah says stuff about it being killed at twilight, this changed later in time. Remember that it takes hours and hours to roast a lamb. If they began at twilight, they would be eating in the middle of the night. That just didn't happen.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Why not? Just as long as it was killed before the death angel came through Egypt. It was a unique time and they would be leaving Egypt the next day or so. Remember they didn't clean it, but roasted it whole.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Because we know that by Jesus' day the meal was in the evening, not the middle of the night. You are speaking about the original Exodus. I'm talking about how it was done much later in history.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
It is verifying some things for me. You don't care anymore.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
There are two twilights. The end of the 14th and the start of the 15th.
I found the following link which I think explains things well. I'm not a supporter of Nehemiah Gordon, but he does a good job here.
When was the Passover Sacrifice Brought - NehemiasWall.com
The Passover sacrifice was brought at the end of the 14th of the First Month, and eaten that same evening, at the beginning of the 15th.
www.nehemiaswall.com
Open Heart
Well-known member
I'm not sure why you concluded that. I was quite earnestly trying to help in the discussion to the best of my ability. I pointed out that just because the passover corban was offered at twilight in the days of the Torah, it was not done at that time of day by the time of Jesus. The seder meal was eaten in the evening, which would necessitate the sacrifice being done earlier in the day, most likely the afternoon. I explained the tremendous amount of effort I had put into trying to nail down the exact timing, to no success. I was simply unable to find a scholar in the matter that would personally assist me in my questions. That sort of effort is not what I would label "no longer caring."
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
There are two twilights. The end of the 14th and the start of the 15th.
I found the following link which I think explains things well. I'm not a supporter of Nehemiah Gordon, but he does a good job here.
When was the Passover Sacrifice Brought - NehemiasWall.com
The Passover sacrifice was brought at the end of the 14th of the First Month, and eaten that same evening, at the beginning of the 15th.
Before I read it, does he explain why it was changed from the beginning of the 14th?
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Not according to the LAW which I thought you loved.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
It's never changed. The first night of Passover coincides with the first night of the festival of Matzah. I recommend you read the article.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
What do you think the word "Passover" refers to?
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Exactly what it says.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Was it before or after the meal?
Open Heart
Well-known member
There is no Torah without Oral Torah.