Share your evidence for Christianity

ReverendRV

Well-known member
There's this complicated philosophical question about morality that no one can agree on, therefore God. Really?
According to the Euthyphro Dilemma; Yes...

The Dilemma depends on Morality possibly existing outside of God, thus the Dilemma depends on the Presupposition that Morality exists, in order for it to even be a Dilemma. It also depends on this external Morality also being Objective. If the External Morality was Subjective, God Objectifies it by choosing things like 'Honor your Father and Mother, that you may have long life'; IE the first Command with a Promise. Certainly God's promise Objectifies it, if the Moral Ethic was Subjective to start with...

But there is the option of not choosing to use the Euthyphro Dilemma as an argument against the existence of God. If someone says 'There is no God and no Objective Morality', then there's no Dilemma. If there is nothing but a manufactured dilemma, then the Euthyphro Dilemma Fails as an argument against the existence of God. If someone wants to keep using the Euthyphro Dilemma as an argument against the existence of God, then Morality must be Objective if God discovered it and agreed with what he discovered; THAT scenario couldn't be Subjective. This means that when Atheists don't believe Morality is Objective, but like the Ethyphro Dilemma, they're having a bout of Cognitive Dissonance due to the Law of Non Contradiction. UNLESS they are intentionally using the notion of Objective Morality while not believing in it, to Proselytize Theists through the use of the Euthyphro Dilemma......
 
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Nouveau

Well-known member
According to the Euthyphro Dilemma; Yes...

The Dilemma depends on Morality possibly existing outside of God, thus the Dilemma depends on the Presupposition that Morality exists, in order for it to even be a Dilemma. It also depends on this external Morality also being Objective, otherwise it is Subjective. God Objectifies it by choosing things like 'Honor your Father and Mother, that you may have long life'; IE the first Command with a Promise. Certainly God's promise Objectifies it, if the Moral Ethic was Subjective to start with...

But there is the option of not choosing to use the Euthyphro Dilemma as an argument against the existence of God. If someone says 'There is no God and no Objective Morality', then there's no Dilemma. If there is nothing but a manufactired dilemma, then the Euthyphro Dilemma Fails as an argument against the existence of God. If someone wants to keep using the Euthyphro Dilemma as an argument against the existence of God, then Morality must be Objective if God discovered it and agreed with it; it couldn't be Subjective. This means that when Atheists don't believe Morality is Objective, but like the Ethyphro Dilemma, they're having a bout of Cognitive Dissonance due to the Law of Non Contradiction. UNLESS they are intentionally using the notion of Objective Morality while not believing in it, to Proselytize Theists...
You've misunderstood the argument. The dilemma is an argument against the consistency of a theistic view whereby:

1) Morality is objective
2) God is the source of morality
3) God is meaningfully good

Drop any one of these and the problem is solved. It is also solved if God does not exist. Thus there is no problem here for atheists, and we don't have to presuppose anything about morality ourselves in order to use the argument, as it concerns only the inconsistency on the part of those who maintain all of 1-3 above.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
According to the Euthyphro Dilemma; Yes...

The Dilemma depends on Morality possibly existing outside of God, thus the Dilemma depends on the Presupposition that Morality exists, in order for it to even be a Dilemma. It also depends on this external Morality also being Objective. If the External Morality was Subjective, God Objectifies it by choosing things like 'Honor your Father and Mother, that you may have long life'; IE the first Command with a Promise. Certainly God's promise Objectifies it, if the Moral Ethic was Subjective to start with...

But there is the option of not choosing to use the Euthyphro Dilemma as an argument against the existence of God. If someone says 'There is no God and no Objective Morality', then there's no Dilemma. If there is nothing but a manufactured dilemma, then the Euthyphro Dilemma Fails as an argument against the existence of God. If someone wants to keep using the Euthyphro Dilemma as an argument against the existence of God, then Morality must be Objective if God discovered it and agreed with what he discovered; THAT scenario couldn't be Subjective. This means that when Atheists don't believe Morality is Objective, but like the Ethyphro Dilemma, they're having a bout of Cognitive Dissonance due to the Law of Non Contradiction. UNLESS they are intentionally using the notion of Objective Morality while not believing in it, to Proselytize Theists through the use of the Euthyphro Dilemma......
What? Really? Why can't morality be both clear cut, ie objective, and subjective? ie not clear cut. How all this proves God is baffling.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You've misunderstood the argument. The dilemma is an argument against the consistency of a theistic view whereby:

1) Morality is objective
2) God is the source of morality
3) God is meaningfully good

Drop any one of these and the problem is solved. It is also solved if God does not exist. Thus there is no problem here for atheists, and we don't have to presuppose anything about morality ourselves in order to use the argument, as it concerns only the inconsistency on the part of those who maintain all of 1-3 above.
That's what I was going to say next; and practically did say that when I said "If someone says 'There is no God and no Objective Morality', then there's no Dilemma.". So do we agree that the Euthyphro Dilemma is not a good argument against the existence of God?

That's basically the point of the argument in my Gospel Tract...
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
That's what I was going to say next; and practically did say that when I said "If someone says 'There is no God and no Objective Morality', then there's no Dilemma.". So do we agree that the Euthyphro Dilemma is not a good argument against the existence of God?

That's basically the point of the argument in my Gospel Tract...
It never was an argument against God. I thought I just made that clear. It is an argument against the position of one who maintains 1-3 in my last post. It is typically used as an argument against divine command theory. My point was that atheists can indeed make the argument without having to believe in objective morality themselves.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What? Really? Why can't morality be both clear cut, ie objective, and subjective? ie not clear cut. How all this proves God is baffling.
Because of the Laws of Logic...

Vain Philosophy ~ by Reverend RV

Colossians 2:8 KJV; Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Vanity in the Bible means empty and useless; self serving. ~ In a discussion with a Secularist I compared the Transcendent Laws of Logic to the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil. He said that if I could get the Laws of Logic to show the difference between Good and Evil, then I would solve the age old Debate; isn't it nice when people tell you what it takes to win them? ~ A ‘Married Bachelor’ is a popular example for the Law of Contradiction. The example shows that the Philosophical Laws of Logic conflate with the Moral Law of God; what would a husband’s wife say if he brought a girlfriend home? Certainly a married Bachelor can’t exist; or can he? When a husband lives his life as if he's a ‘Swinging Single’ because of his Subjective Morality (which Relativists affirm), instead of Objective Morality (which they deny); then I've proven the Transcendent Laws of Logic provide them the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But the strange thing is, some Relativists affirm that the Laws of Logic are Objective but not Transcendent; go figure...

Do you live your life as a Married Bachelor? Most are familiar with the television show ‘The Bachelor’. What if on the last episode, the Bachelorette found out the Bachelor is married; but ‘to him’ he is still a Bachelor? ~ What would you call the Bachelor for Lying? Have you ever told a Lie?? What would you call someone who stole from you? Have you stolen even one thing? Have you ever committed Adultery? Jesus said that if you’ve Lusted after someone, then you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart. Would our Married Bachelor have committed Adultery just by being on the show? Then you are an Adulterer too! We can see how Vain their Philosophy is when they believe in Objectivity and in Subjectivity, that’s a violation of the Law of Contradiction; Vanity of Vanities! ~ If God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you even in the least??

God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit and this granted him a Sinless advantage in life. He remained Sinless and qualified to be the spotless sacrifice for the Sins of the world. He shed his blood, died on a Cross to satisfy the Wrath of God against all who now believe; and to purify us so we are acceptable to God. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Jesus Christ, not by any Work we could ever do to earn our Justification. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and join a Church that always preaches the Bible; a Church that also looks for Lost Souls. ~ The Laws of Logic are accepted as Transcendent by Philosophers and by Christians. Both sides will agree we didn’t invent the Laws, but discovered them. How can they exist without a Transcendent Intellect then?

Jeremiah 15:16 KJV; Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
 
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Whatsisface

Well-known member
That's what I was going to say next; and practically did say that when I said "If someone says 'There is no God and no Objective Morality', then there's no Dilemma.". So do we agree that the Euthyphro Dilemma is not a good argument against the existence of God?

That's basically the point of the argument in my Gospel Tract...
Is it that the dilemma is not so much an argument against God, but rather that morality can't be contingent on God?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It never was an argument against God. I thought I just made that clear. It is an argument against the position of one who maintains 1-3 in my last post. It is typically used as an argument against divine command theory. My point was that atheists can indeed make the argument without having to believe in objective morality themselves.
Fair enough. But I'd think you would agree the Euthyphro Dilemma has been used as an argument against the existence of God before...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Is it that the dilemma is not so much an argument against God, but rather that morality can't be contingent on God?
I think that it is an argument that Morality can/can't be contingent on God; without coming down on one side or the other. I believe it leaves that to the Thinker, to See-Saw back and forth over...
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Because of the Laws of Logic...

Vain Philosophy ~ by Reverend RV

Colossians 2:8 KJV; Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Vanity in the Bible means empty and useless; self serving. ~ In a discussion with a Secularist I compared the Transcendent Laws of Logic to the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil. He said that if I could get the Laws of Logic to show the difference between Good and Evil, then I would solve the age old Debate; isn't it nice when people tell you what it takes to win them? ~ A ‘Married Bachelor’ is a popular example for the Law of Contradiction. The example shows that the Philosophical Laws of Logic conflate with the Moral Law of God; what would a husband’s wife say if he brought a girlfriend home? Certainly a married Bachelor can’t exist; or can he? When a husband lives his life as if he's a ‘Swinging Single’ because of his Subjective Morality (which Relativists affirm), instead of Objective Morality (which they deny); then I've proven the Transcendent Laws of Logic provide them the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But the strange thing is, some Relativists affirm that the Laws of Logic are Objective but not Transcendent; go figure...

Do you live your life as a Married Bachelor? Most are familiar with the television show ‘The Bachelor’. What if on the last episode, the Bachelorette found out the Bachelor is married; but ‘to him’ he is still a Bachelor? ~ What would you call the Bachelor for Lying? Have you ever told a Lie?? What would you call someone who stole from you? Have you stolen even one thing? Have you ever committed Adultery? Jesus said that if you’ve Lusted after someone, then you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart. Would our Married Bachelor have committed Adultery just by being on the show? Then you are an Adulterer too! We can see how Vain their Philosophy is when they believe in Objectivity and in Subjectivity, that’s a violation of the Law of Contradiction; Vanity of Vanities! ~ If God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you even in the least??

God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit and this granted him a Sinless advantage in life. He remained Sinless and qualified to be the spotless sacrifice for the Sins of the world. He shed his blood, died on a Cross to satisfy the Wrath of God against all who now believe; and to purify us so we are acceptable to God. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Jesus Christ, not by any Work we could ever do to earn our Justification. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and join a Church that always preaches the Bible; a Church that also looks for Lost Souls. ~ The Laws of Logic are accepted as Transcendent by Philosophers and by Christians. Both sides will agree we didn’t invent the Laws, but discovered them. How can they exist without a Transcendent Intellect then?

Jeremiah 15:16 KJV; Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
I've corrected you on this before. A married man who lives like a bachelor still isn't a married bachelor. Logic is about the consistency of propositions, and has nothing to do with morality or lifestyle choices.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Because of the Laws of Logic...

Vain Philosophy ~ by Reverend RV

Colossians 2:8 KJV; Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Vanity in the Bible means empty and useless; self serving. ~ In a discussion with a Secularist I compared the Transcendent Laws of Logic to the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil. He said that if I could get the Laws of Logic to show the difference between Good and Evil, then I would solve the age old Debate; isn't it nice when people tell you what it takes to win them? ~ A ‘Married Bachelor’ is a popular example for the Law of Contradiction. The example shows that the Philosophical Laws of Logic conflate with the Moral Law of God; what would a husband’s wife say if he brought a girlfriend home? Certainly a married Bachelor can’t exist; or can he? When a husband lives his life as if he's a ‘Swinging Single’ because of his Subjective Morality (which Relativists affirm), instead of Objective Morality (which they deny); then I've proven the Transcendent Laws of Logic provide them the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But the strange thing is, some Relativists affirm that the Laws of Logic are Objective but not Transcendent; go figure...

Do you live your life as a Married Bachelor? Most are familiar with the television show ‘The Bachelor’. What if on the last episode, the Bachelorette found out the Bachelor is married; but ‘to him’ he is still a Bachelor? ~ What would you call the Bachelor for Lying? Have you ever told a Lie?? What would you call someone who stole from you? Have you stolen even one thing? Have you ever committed Adultery? Jesus said that if you’ve Lusted after someone, then you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart. Would our Married Bachelor have committed Adultery just by being on the show? Then you are an Adulterer too! We can see how Vain their Philosophy is when they believe in Objectivity and in Subjectivity, that’s a violation of the Law of Contradiction; Vanity of Vanities! ~ If God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you even in the least??

God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit and this granted him a Sinless advantage in life. He remained Sinless and qualified to be the spotless sacrifice for the Sins of the world. He shed his blood, died on a Cross to satisfy the Wrath of God against all who now believe; and to purify us so we are acceptable to God. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Jesus Christ, not by any Work we could ever do to earn our Justification. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and join a Church that always preaches the Bible; a Church that also looks for Lost Souls. ~ The Laws of Logic are accepted as Transcendent by Philosophers and by Christians. Both sides will agree we didn’t invent the Laws, but discovered them. How can they exist without a Transcendent Intellect then?

Jeremiah 15:16 KJV; Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
I'm a bit confused by all that. All I know is, the Laws of Logic can be accounted for without reference to God.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Fair enough. But I'd think you would agree the Euthyphro Dilemma has been used as an argument against the existence of God before...
I wouldn't say never, but I certainly haven't seen it used that way. Have you? I see it get used against theists who claim morality proves God, but that isn't the same as using it to disprove God.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I've corrected you on this before. A married man who lives like a bachelor still isn't a married bachelor. Logic is about the consistency of propositions, and has nothing to do with morality or lifestyle choices.
But if Morality is Subjective, you haven't proven anything...
 
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