Shared altar / pulpit
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Nic
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VDMA
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How do I feel about ultra liberal heretical apostate “Lutherans” LINO’s (Lutheran in name only) and ultra liberal apostate Anglicans signing an agreement? I don’t care.
I mean sacred scripture and doctrine means nothing to these two groups. These two liberal groups are bleeding members so fast hopefully they’ll gone within 50 years. Anything associated with the “Lutheran World Federation” you can disregard, most of those church bodies are apostate and ordain women, endorse homosexuality, critical race theory, etc. I could care less if they have agreement with ultra liberal Anglicans.
Are confessional Lutheran and Confessional Anglicans in agreement? Lutheran are in closer agreement with Anglo-Catholics and not at all in agreement with low church Anglicans. When it comes to Anglicanism it needs to be defined because their confessions are loose and not narrowly define. They are either low church Evangelical Calvinistic “churchman” or high church Anglo Catholic “churchman”. There is a big difference between low church Calvinist Evangelical Anglicans (which are really just Presbyterians) and high church Anglo Catholics. Low church reject the corporal blood and body of Christ (which is in err), the other believes in the corporal blood and body Christ and rejects the errors of Calvinism. Anglicanism have a wider divergence of theological beliefs under the umbrella of the Anglican community. There is no such thing as a Calvinist/Zwigian Lutheran. When it comes to Anglicanism high church Anglo Catholics churches are the only viable churches within the Anglican community. An Anglican Church in the mold of J.I. Packer would not be a viable option because it would be Calvinist church. At the end of the day if the church rejects Sacraments (e.g. if they reject baptismal regeneration, corporeal blood and body of Christ, private confession Absolution, and adhere to the false teachings of Calvin and Zwingli, etc.) they are not church. You do not have a real church without sacraments. The biggest weakness of Anglicanism is they tolerate the serious errs of Calvin and Zwingli. You will never find the false teachings of Zwingli and Calvin in confessional Lutheranism.
I do not see confessional Lutherans coming into a agreement with Altar fellowship with Anglicans as long as they tolerate the errors of Zwingli and Calvinist within her ranks. Confessional Lutherans and high church Anglicans are close in doctrine, low church Anglicans are not at all in agreement with confessional Lutherans.
Good. Then you have something in common.
Says the heretic who believes children are to be baptized, and that baptism is a means of salvation.
aka A Bible believing church.
And we don't believe you have a real church if you believe you reject the BIble's teaching that grace is the result of faith, and not of external means.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
And no one would know such things better than you, right?
According to Scripture and common sense infants are necessarily a part of a people.
You do realize the risen Lord was speaking to His already baptized disciples in Matt 28:19ff and that the imperative was to them to disciple all peoples, that is, baptize and teach all peoples, right?
They may believe some of the Bible but it is clear that they err greatly on numerous topics, for example, the Gospel, Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, etc. One example of this is that they deny the clear teaching of Scripture which says baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, 1 Peter 3:21-22.
That is a backwards and Christ despising interpretation. Grace is the unmerited favor of God, especially in the person and work of Christ. Faith in Christ is a result of grace.
Cite the verses.
So, everybody has infants?
In your opinion. But you appear to be Catholic, so it really doesn't matter.
edit per mod
No, it's literally what the Bible says.
If you believed it was unmerited, you wouldn't believe you had to do works to get it.
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BJ Bear
Well-known member
Here are two, one with regard to a Gentile people and the second with regard to the people of God, that is, the congregation or church of God. They are from Biblegateway.com.
"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’"" 1 Sam. 15:3 - NKJV
"Gather the people,
Sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber,
And the bride from her dressing room." Joel 2:16, -NKJV
This is the religion and culture into which the incarnate Lord and His Apostles and disciples standind before Him in Matthew 28:19ff were born and in which they lived. If someone chooses to read and understand that passage or Scripture in general in an out of context manner then that is on him.
According to Scripture a person did not become a people without having infants, little people. A sure way for a people to stop being a people is to cease having infants, little people.
An honest person not trying to defend a defenseless tradition of men that is contrary to Scripture need only read Scripture to see the truth of the matter with regard to those topics.
Citing the passage so that anyone can look it up in context in the translation of his choice is neither being dishonest or a lie.
If someone were to lookup 1 Peter 3:21-22 then he would find that the substantive acting is baptism, the verb is save, and the passive object being saved is you (or us depending on the text being translated). According to Scripture then baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ.
Says who? People are saved by grace through faith and this not of themselves, etc, Ephesians 2:8-10.
Read 1 Peter 3:21-22 again. The person being baptized is the passive object in baptism so it can't be his work. The unstated person who is baptizing is not the acting substantive so it can't be his work. The only thing left is baptism, the acting substantive, therefore it is just as Scripture says, baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ.
Baptism into Christ is from God, freely given for all men, it is a means of His unmerited favor. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10 NKJV
And how do these verses show that babies are included in Christ's command to baptize?
But you didn't cite the passage. You didn't even cite the whole verse. You cited just a snippet of a verse in order to make it appear that baptism saves.
You keep saying the verse just says "baptism now saves you". It doesn't. It says, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ".
EDITED BY MOD--RULE 12 VIOLATIONS
Paul.
Thus, not through works, such as baptism.
EDITED BY MOD--RULE 12 VIOLATION
Thus, not through works such as baptism.
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BJ Bear
Well-known member
The infants are necessarily included as suitable objects of the person and work of Christ, the promise of Christ, baptism into Christ, and the teaching of Christ since they are people and the ones being baptized and taught are passive.
My first reply to you is post #27, if you read it again you will see that it plainly refers to 1 Peter 3:21-22. Citing that passage for you to look up in the translation of your choice for the context makes it superfluous to quote the entire passage.
That is what the passage says. Quoting that entire section of Scripture doesn't change the substantive acting, baptism; the verb, save; the passive object being baptized, you (or us depending on the text being translated); or that baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ.
Great, if this is your translation of choice then please note that the translator's choice, "corresponds to this," is referring to baptism as the antitype. In this case like in Romans 5, Christ the antitype, the antitype is greater than the type. (In Romans 5 that would be Adam.)
A second thing that should be noted is that the string of nouns sometimes translated as a parenthetical thought refer to the substantive acting, baptism, rather than the passive object being baptized. In other words, it is baptism that is, "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience," rather than those words telling us about the passive object being baptized.
Again, the antitype referred to in 1 Peter 3:21 is baptism. Quoting that entire section of Scripture doesn't change that in 1 Peter 3:21-22 the substantive acting is baptism; the verb is save; the passive object being saved is you; or that it saves through the resurrection of Christ.
If I didn't want anyone to see that then I wouldn't have cited the passage beginning in my first reply to you. EDITED
At best that is a misinterpretation of Paul.
EDITED Since the passive person being baptized is excluded as the one working and the unstated person administering the baptism is also excluded as the one working then it is not a work of men.
Baptism is the work of God.
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Bonnie
Super Member
Some churches think Baptism is a work WE do, since we perform the rite, along with quoting "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." WE are the ones who pour water or dip folks in it while quoting that. Ergo, they think it is a work WE do, so we know works don't save, ergo, Baptism doesn't save, either.
But 1 Peter 3 contradicts them. What they fail to realize is that the WORK done in baptism is the forgiveness of sins--and that alone Jesus Christ does, with the word working THROUGH the water. For only God can forgive sins. As Ephesians 5 says:
I have had a couple of evangelicals try to tell me that this means being cleansed by being "washed" by the word, but that isn't what Paul wrote--he said "having cleansed her BY THE WASHING OF WATER WITH THE WORD." The water by itself is nothing, but the word of God spoken during baptism is what cleanses us through the water used in Holy Baptism. Why do they deny the clear words of Scripture?
I think it may be like the 5 blind men trying to describe an elephant. Each one knew his description was correct, and the others' were wrong.
Of course, this is my opinion, and not really something I'd want to argue.
--Rich
Bonnie
Super Member
All of Scripture is the "elephant", but one thing Lutherans are not prone to do, when studying the Bible, is to isolate verses, and take them out of their immediate, God-given context, as Beej would say. We see ALL of the Bible as a harmonious whole.
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Bonnie
Super Member
Baptism is the work of God, the forgiveness of sins He gives us,, through the washing of water WITH the word of God. Only God in Christ Jesus can forgive sins, and He can so do so through Holy Baptism. Ergo, it is the work of God, not a work of ours.
Lutheranian
Active member
I have spoken to Anglicans who consider themselves "Augsburg Anglicans" that is they believe in the Augsburg Confession. Unfortunately there could never be full communion and fellowship as long as Anglicans tolerates error like rejection of the real presence and ordination of women and the like.
Nic
Well-known member
Rich your so nice, has anyone ever called you a good humanitarian and an affront to the gospel? That's what I was called for being nice. 😆
Nic
Well-known member
I'm from Chi-town 6'1" 245#s lol