You keep writing of false doctrine but you haven't demonstrated that this is so from the text of the passages cited or quoted nor can you do so.. That means you are calling God's word in the perfect immediate context in which it was given false doctrine.
Mike your passion isn't bad thing nor good. It won't alone send someone to hell, not me nor you. What condemns people to hell in a single word? Unbelief.
False doctrine also condemns someone to Hell. So, good luck with that.
If you're depending on your baptism to save you, then you're not depending on Christ and, therefore, you follow a false gospel.
You're the heretics who are insisting one is saved by baptism.
This is among the dumbest things I've read here. You're the ones insisting baptism saves, not me.
After this thread, why in the world would I want to? I did the work to back up what I said and bring insight and you two crapped all over me. Bonnie just ignored it. Proverbs 26:4 says I shouldn't do that again.
So unbelief isn't sin? Or unbelief is part of faith? What are you saying? Surely unbelief condemns everyone. What is the work of God, belief no? Ergo unbelief is not the work of God. Seems pretty straightforward on that least common denominator, true? The difference concerning unbelief or un-faith, is faith in Christ; repentance and faith go hand in hand. The gift of faith is perfect yet our embrace and acting on the gift is fallen at every turn.
Who gave us baptism??? A person is baptized for what reasons? [You can use you bible for reference.] Baptism is being born again, it's how one enters the church.
You see, although we are good humanitarians because we are lutheran (my cynicism based on how others with similar views to yours have criticized us) we still see you as the heretic. Imagine that? The difference is your view of baptism trumps faith in Christ or to put it another way, if a person believes everything just like you except baptism, in your world they go to hell. How weird is that? I see room for individuals to make cases for their interpretations, even error and still be saved. I do agree certain errors exclude one from being a Christian but baptism is not necessarily nor generally thought of as one of them, not even the way you present it.
You're the odd man out of longstanding historical understanding who says baptism condemns.
Christian charity is difficult at times, if not almost always), don't you hate that too? The reason for a real person to person exchange would be the advantages of a better form of communication than typing in a discussion forum. Surely you see advantages there as well?
You brought the wrong kind of evidence. We don't have a pope and we have no interest in some person's imagination and false assumptions regarding Scripture and history. (I passed over RWP because if a person reads his introductory remarks then he will find that Robertson was noting things of interest to him. That is not the same as presenting the what and why of a definitive interpretation of a passage.)
Understanding Scripture according to the God given perfect immediate context is never false doctrine.
That misunderstanding above of Scripture and what we are saying is based upon trying to divide baptism into Christ from Christ.
Scripture says that baptism does now save you through the ressurrection of Christ so if we affirm that then we can't be the heretic in the discusssion. At least not to anyone who believes that God's word is authoritative.
Affirming what Scripture says in the context in which it was given is never dumb let alone the, "dumbest," thing a person has read on this board or elsewhere.
No we don't believe we are saved by our works, but Baptism is the work of God, not of us. We perform the Sacrament but it is Jesus Christ Who effects the forgiveness of sins through the washing OF water, WITH THE WORD. Therefore, it is the work of God, not the work of man.
Thus revealing what you don't understand or repeatedly hear.
I understand your polemical jargon, but please try to hear our position so you can at least get it right when you thrown around your arrived conclusions. Thanks in advance.
Not surprised the guy who think he's saved by getting wet doesn't understand the Gospel.
We still love and care for you, maybe that's the difference? No one has lied. Get real.
You should educate yourself, we teach what's constitutes a baptism. www.bookofconcord.org
Thus, you show you misunderstood me. What is achieved thru Holy Baptism is the forgiveness of sins. THAT is the work of God, not of man. Pouring water and saying the Baptismal words are not work. The forgiveness of sins IS, but THAT is the work of God. And it is God's work that saves us.
This is true. But we Lutherans on here know plenty about the true Gospel message.
Let's start with Acts 2:38. Then, we can talk about Matthew 28:19.
Again, that you cannot present your thoughts clearly is not my problem.
Which is not Biblical. The Bible is very clear that the forgiveness of sins happens when we are born again, not when we are baptized.
The forgiveness of sin is a work of God. Baptism is a work of man.
And, according to you, none of that happens unless man does the work of baptism.
Both of you have repeatedly said we're saved through baptism.
The Bible says women should be silent. Maybe you should give that a try.
Except that baptism is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.
Not going by your posts. You two appear to be as confused about the Gospel as the Catholics here.This is true. But we Lutherans on here know plenty about the true Gospel message.
It doesn't appear that you really know what we believe about the Gospel.
You're the one who posted the verses about water baptism, and even posted verses that aren't about baptism and claimed they are about baptism.
Not what the text says.
Good. Then there's no reason to believe you're saved by being baptized.
I didn't say it was a command. I just said it's probably a good idea.The Bible says women should be silent IN CHURCH. And not have authority over men in church. The last time I checked, CARM is not a church and debate boards are not church services.
The Bible doesn't say that.
Not according to the Bible.
So, if you're posts aren't an accurate representation of what you believe, why do you bother posting?
Who says my posts aren't an accurate representation of what I believe? I said that you don't really seem to know what we believe about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is different.
Nonsense. Whether it it is 1 Peter 3:21-22, Acts 2:38-39, or Matthew 28:19 the one being baptized is passive. Baptism is something done to a passive object, the one being baptized. If something is a passive object in a sentence then it is not the acting nominative in the same sentence.