Shared Pulpit, shared Table

BMS

Well-known member
You can believe whatever you like. You can believe that 2+2=5. But your belief bears no consequence to the facts.

This is from the official website of the Episcopal Church in America:



In fact, that page affirms everything I said above.

It doesn't matter what you believe. The facts are that the 39 articles are outdated, and are no longer required even in the Church of England.
Well maybe not for the Episcopal church but they are in impaired communion with the rest of the Anglican Communion anyway because they do their own thing
 

rakovsky

Active member
Not so sure about that. I believe Bishops at ordination do still affirm the 39 articles and to uphold them, they are included in the book of common prayer and cannon law expects all Anglicans to respect them
Iirc, the ECUSA back in the early to mid 20th century had a conference and put the 39 articles in the historical documents section and said that subscription to them was not required.

The COE, and the Anglicans in South Africa and Australia still require subscription by priests.

The ECUSA defines the Anglican churches as those in communion with the See of Canterbury. The ECUSA has been separate from the COE for centuries and the COE doesnt require the ECUSA to subscribe to them. Iirc, the Articles also affirm Monarchy, and the COE didnt demand that the ECUSA ascribe to that.

I dont recall offhand if there are any other statements in force in the ECUSA with a particular stance on the objective Presence. I couldn't find if the BOCP has a position currently on it or on host reservation. The COE canon law for centuries banned host reservation and at least several editions of the Book of CP banned it. But currently the ECUSA doesnt ban host reservation I think.

Personally, I think that even if you believed that the host was just a symbol, it shouldn't mean that reserving the symbol would be wrong. But that was their idea- the background was that the COE associated host reservation with the belief in the objective presence, so they banned it.

If the COE still subscribes to the Articles but allows host reservation, it creates a little contradiction. Technically the Articles dont ban reservation, they just polemicize against it.
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
How do people here feel about sharing pulpit and altar with the ELCA? What about other denominations?
We wouldn't do it in our church. At worst, you're inviting false teaching in and not preserving the sanctity of the altar and the Lord's Table, at best, you're just asking for trouble.
 

rakovsky

Active member
We wouldn't do it in our church. At worst, you're inviting false teaching in and not preserving the sanctity of the altar and the Lord's Table, at best, you're just asking for trouble.
Which church does this parish belong to?

It sounds like Anglicans are posting in the thread who don't belong to the ECUSA. I can't tell if they are Anglo Catholics or Low Church Anglican separated churches.
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
Iirc, ....
What does "lirc" mean?

The COE, and the Anglicans in South Africa and Australia still require subscription by priests.
You seem to be using several terms in ways that seem contradictory / improper to me.

"Anglican Communion" refers to a loose collection of denominations who follow roughly the same theology and polity. It is not as structured as, say, the Roman Catholic Church, since they do not believe that any Bishop has authority over any other Bishop (while the RCC recognizes the Pope, who is the Bishop in Rome, as the earthly head). But they are more united than many other international church conglomerates, as they do meet (the Lambeth Conference) every 10 years to try to agree on certain matters. Hundreds of countries' Anglican churches are members of the Anglican Communion.

"Church of England" (COE) is the official, state church of England. It is Anglican, and a member of the Anglican Communion. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the closest Anglicans come to a pope, but the COE doesn't have any authority over any other Anglican church.

The COE does not require subscription to the 39 articles by its priests, and hasn't for almost 100 years.

"Episcopal Church" (EC) is the United States' Anglican denomination. It is also a member of the Anglican Communion.

In general, Anglicans are very eager to discuss theology, but not so keen on demanding a consensus on it. We believe that we are not saved (or damned) by being "right," so there is no reason to insist that its members agree on any particular tenet, and much to be lost by such insisting. After all, one person is just as likely to be wrong as another. Rigorous Bible study is encouraged, but rather than a priest telling parishioners what to believe, we challenge each other to seek Scripture and grow in Christ.
 

rakovsky

Active member
What does "lirc" mean?



The COE does not require subscription to the 39 articles by its priests, and hasn't for almost 100 years.
New World Encyclopedia says that Anglican COE priests must make an oath that the Articles are "agreeable to the Word of God."
This is practically the same as subscription, in that their clergy must affirm that the Articles are in line with God's Word.
I guess someone could say that in certain cases, something is agreeable to God's Word but doesn't "subscribe" to it, like whether women should wear head coverings.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Yes thanks rakovsky. I do think the 39 articles feature with bishops in mist of the Anglican Communion.
The ECUSA is in impared communion with the CofE with is also now becoming apostate in respect of same sex relations. For the Anglican Communion up until the lgbtqi+ religion influence the faithful marriage between a man and a woman was a secondary sacrement.
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
New World Encyclopedia says that Anglican COE priests must make an oath that the Articles are "agreeable to the Word of God."
This is practically the same as subscription, in that their clergy must affirm that the Articles are in line with God's Word.
I guess someone could say that in certain cases, something is agreeable to God's Word but doesn't "subscribe" to it, like whether women should wear head coverings.

Hmmm.

The NWE says one thing.

The COE says another.

While in matters of science or history, I may be inclined to accept the word of NWE over any church body, I think on matters of the COE, the COE knows better than any other source.

Just sayin'.
 

rakovsky

Active member
Hmmm.

The NWE says one thing.

The COE says another.

While in matters of science or history, I may be inclined to accept the word of NWE over any church body, I think on matters of the COE, the COE knows better than any other source.

Just sayin'.

Currently, new priests in the COE affirm the Articles indirectly, with this formula:
"I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness".

Further, this refers to the 39 Articles because the Canons of the COE on the COE website say:
"The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England."

Rev. Lee Gatis writes:
The Thirty-nine Articles of Religion are printed at the back of the Book of Common Prayer, and have formed the basis of the Church of England's doctrine from its earliest days. Canon Law still gives the Articles pride of place in the legal framework of the denomination, stating that "The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England" (Canon A2). The doctrine of the Church, grounded in Holy Scripture, is crystallised in these Articles and their liturgical outworking in The Book of Common Prayer and The Ordinal (Canon A5).

Canon A5 of the COE says,
"The doctrine of the Church of England is grounded in the Holy Scriptures, and in such teachings of the ancient Fathers and Councils of the Church as are agreeable to the said Scriptures. In particular such doctrine is to be found in the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordinal."

Any bishop in the Australian Anglican Church must declare, based on the Ordinal for Australia):

The Anglican Church of Australia, being an Apostolic Church, receives and retains the Catholic faith, which is grounded in Holy Scripture and expressed in the Creeds, and within its own history, in the Thirty-Nine Articles, in The Book of Common Prayer and in the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In accordance with the Canons of this Church, I now require you to make your Declaration and Assent to this faith.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Hmmm.

The NWE says one thing.

The COE says another.

While in matters of science or history, I may be inclined to accept the word of NWE over any church body, I think on matters of the COE, the COE knows better than any other source.

Just sayin'.
Hmmmn you made the claim for the CofE and it seems you were wrong. Once again you sounded so knowledgable and convincing but once again you were wrong
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
Hmmmn you made the claim for the CofE and it seems you were wrong. Once again you sounded so knowledgable and convincing but once again you were wrong

Wrong.

@rakovsky quoted two different things.

He quoted one webpage, "christianitystackexchange," in such a way to suggest that the COE still requires its priests and bishops to adhere to the 39 Articles. However, if you look at that website, you will find that it is NOT, in any way, an official page of the Church of England, or overseen by the Church in any way. It is a site where Christians from various backgrounds (primarily evangelical) ask questions, and answer questions. The "authority" is only what any particular person thinks.

In other words, it would be the equivalent of if someone quoted anything I wrote on this board, and claimed it was "Orthodox Christian Belief," just because they found it on a Christian website.

Imagine if someone quoted me saying, as I did in another forum, "not all transgender women are biologically men," and said, "See, it says so in a Christian forum. Therefore, the official Christian position is that transgender women are actually women."

I think you are well aware that that is not the "official Christian position."

Neither is anything from "christianitystackexchange" necessarily the official position of the COE. I'm not saying everything on that site is wrong. I'm simply saying you can't assume everything on it is true. It ain't the Bible.

The second quote is from the Church of England website. And it says, very clearly:
"The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England."
This does not imply that the 39A are mandatory for all priests and bishops. This does not mean that all members of the COE are required to accept them. This does not, in any way, affirm rakovsky's previous assertion.

All it does is say that there's nothing in the 39A that is contrary to scripture.

I have never claimed otherwise.

All I have said is that priests and bishops in the COE are not required to affirm them, nor have they been for almost 100 years.

And nothing rakovsky has provided contradicts this. As much as he/she may want to believe it otherwise, it simply isn't the case.

There are probably Anglican priests and bishops -- both in the COE and in all Anglican churches worldwide -- who absolutely affirm every one of the 39 articles, without reservation or hesitance. And I am not saying that there is anything in particular wrong with any one of the articles, or all of them as a whole.

I'm simply stating, for the 10th times or so, that the COE does not requires her bishops and priests to make an oath to them. The COE has loyalty to Christ alone, not to any creed, theological tenet, philosophy, or political view.

I don't know why this is so hard for y'all to understand. God gave you a brain. It would be nice to use it once in a while.
 

BMS

Well-known member
I am.not that bothered by this HillsboroMom because I see the CofE becoming apostate, but thanks for the update and clarification
 

rakovsky

Active member
He quoted one webpage, "christianitystackexchange," in such a way to suggest that the COE still requires its priests and bishops to adhere to the 39 Articles. However, if you look at that website, you will find that it is NOT, in any way, an official page of the Church of England, or overseen by the Church in any way.

The Church of England website has the same quote of assent that Stackexchange gave in the last paragraph below:
The Declaration of Assent is made by deacons, priests and bishops of the Church of England when they are ordained and on each occasion when they take up a new appointment (Canon C 15). Readers and Lay Workers make the declaration, without the words ‘and administration of the sacraments’, when they are admitted and when they are licensed (Canons E 5, E 6 and E 8).

Preface
...
Led by the Holy Spirit, it [the COE] has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make, will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making Him known to those in your care?

Declaration of Assent

I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized or allowed by Canon.

So all servers, from Lay Workers to bishops, declare belief in the particular faith to which the "historic formularies," specifically the 39 Articles witness and the Preface indicates that they are all giving loyalty to this "inheritance of faith" that the COE passed down and witnessed to in the Articles.
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
The Church of England website has the same quote of assent that Stackexchange gave in the last paragraph below:

So all servers, from Lay Workers to bishops, declare belief in the particular faith to which the "historic formularies," specifically the 39 Articles witness and the Preface indicates that they are all giving loyalty to this "inheritance of faith" that the COE passed down and witnessed to in the Articles.

And I repeat, for like the 20th time, that the COE does NOT require its priests or bishops to affirm the 39 Articles, and has not for almost 100 years. You can keep implying otherwise, but you will be continuing to lie every time you do. And bearing false witness against your neighbor is one of the Big Ten, as you may be aware.

Just sayin'
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
And I repeat, for like the 20th time, that the COE does NOT require its priests or bishops to affirm the 39 Articles, and has not for almost 100 years. You can keep implying otherwise, but you will be continuing to lie every time you do. And bearing false witness against your neighbor is one of the Big Ten, as you may be aware.

Just sayin'

My goodness. This is becoming more and more demanding.

I'm very familiar with the 39 articles. The KJV translators had to agree them.

Delete at your own risk.

But, you cannot delete the scriptures that formed those articles.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)
6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
And I repeat, for like the 20th time, that the COE does NOT require its priests or bishops to affirm the 39 Articles, and has not for almost 100 years. You can keep implying otherwise, but you will be continuing to lie every time you do. And bearing false witness against your neighbor is one of the Big Ten, as you may be aware.

Just sayin'
The Thirty-nine Articles can be divided into eight sections based on their content:[57]

Articles 1–5: The Doctrine of God: The first five articles articulate the doctrine of God, the Holy Trinity and the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This is a departure from other doctrinal statements of the 16th and 17th centuries such as the Helvetic Confessions and the Westminster Confession, which begin with the doctrine of revelation and Holy Scripture as the source of knowledge about God.[58]

Articles 6–8: Scripture and the Creeds: These articles state that Holy Scripture contains everything necessary for salvation, so that no one can be required to believe any doctrine that cannot be proved on the basis of biblical teaching. The articles acknowledge the authority of the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed because they express Scriptural teaching. It states that the Apocrypha provides moral instruction and examples for holy living, but is not the basis of required doctrine.[59]

Articles 9–18: Sin and Salvation: These articles discuss the doctrines of original sin and justification by faith (salvation is a gift received through faith in Christ). They reject the Roman Catholic teachings on works of supererogation and that performing good works can make a person worthy to receive justification. They also reject the radical Protestant teaching that a person could be free from sin in this life.[60] The articles address the doctrine of predestination—that "Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God". Double predestination, the belief that God has also predestined some people to reprobation, is not endorsed by the articles.[61]

Articles 19–21: The Church and its Authority: These articles explain the nature and authority of the visible church. They state that the church, under Scripture, has authority over matters of faith and order. General councils of the church can only be called with the permission of the civil authority. It is possible for church councils to reach the wrong decisions, so they should only be followed if their actions align with Scripture.[62]

Articles 22–24: Errors to be avoided in the Church: These articles condemn the Roman Catholic teachings on purgatory, indulgences, the use of religious images and the invocation of saints. In addition, the Roman Catholic practice of using Latin as a liturgical language was disapproved of in favor of the vernacular. The articles state that no person should preach publicly or administer the sacraments unless they are called and authorised by legitimate church authority.[63] This was meant to counter the radical Protestant belief that a Christian could preach and act as a minister on his own initiative in defiance of church authorities.[64]
 

rakovsky

Active member
And I repeat, for like the 20th time, that the COE does NOT require its priests or bishops to affirm the 39 Articles, and has not for almost 100 years. You can keep implying otherwise, but you will be continuing to lie every time you do. And bearing false witness against your neighbor is one of the Big Ten, as you may be aware.
Since the COE requires its clergy to explicitly each declare "my belief in the faith... to which the historic formularies of the Church of England [including explicitly the 39 Articles] bear witness;" then the normal logical conclusion is that instead of affirming the Roman Catholic Faith to which the Catholic Canons attest (eg. Transubstantiation, Purgatory, etc.), the COE clergy are affirming the Faith theology of the 39 Articles (eg. Receptionism, anti-Transubstantiation, etc.).
 

BMS

Well-known member
And of course the Bishops do declare to drive out false teaching, which they collectively are not now doing.. and which they would if they affirmed the 39 articles
 

rakovsky

Active member
which they would if they affirmed the 39 articles
FYI, I agree with Luther that the Biblical idea is that the Eucharist elements actually are Jesus' body and blood in some way, whereas the 39 Articles' tend to teach Calvin's opposing view.
 
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