Should we work to get rid of Christianity?

From Wikipedia: The principle of sufficient reason states...
Ah, now I know what you are talking about. If you'd said you were talking about the PSR instead of 'Law of Sufficient Case' we could have avoided pages of confusion. I refer you back to my post #707 where I said that it "sounds like an outdated principle of scholastic philosophy rather than any part of modern logic or science". And that is exactly what it is. The PSR was advocated by Leibniz, though dates back to the presocratics. It was also discussed by Hamilton (though not Aristotle - the Wiki footnote there is spurious), but has a very different formulation - he does not say that every event must have a sufficient cause, but only that we should never infer anything without good reason. This formulation has nothing to do with causation, and nothing to do with Aristotle. The PSR as applied to causation has had little relevance since Hume, and as Hamilton notes: "In the more recent systems of philosophy, the universality and necessity of the axiom of Reason has, with other logical laws, been controverted and rejected by speculators on the absolute." Here's a better source than the Wiki page if you want to read further: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sufficient-reason/

Although Aristotle called it a law and I think it would be more accurate to say "every effect must have a reason or a cause." But nevertheless this proves my basic point.
Aristotle never advocated the PSR as a law of logic, as I've been saying for many pages now.

Nature IS a formal system. The entire universe can be explained by mathematics. And in order to prove or explain it, you have to go "outside" the system to the supernature or supernatural.
Is nature an axiomatic formal system, where its theorems are recursively computable? If not, Godel doesn't apply. Your last point bears further thought though. Clearly a system (or at least any non-tautological system) can only be explained by going beyond that system. But that applies to the system of 'God+Nature' as well. Would you go beyond and outside of that system in order to explain it? The point is that at some point explanations must bottom out with something that is brute fact and necessarily inexplicable. Christians like to think explanation stops with God, but there's really no good reason not to stop one step earlier with the universe and its fundamental laws and constants.
 
Because it makes more sense to believe that rationality came from a pre-existing rationality rather than the non-rational.
This still isn't a thorough explanation because you're just appealing to what makes sense to you, which may or may not be the truth.

You say without God logic might well not exist. Let's take a principle of logic, the Law of Identity. The Law of Identity states that a thing is what it is, formulated as A=A. What makes this true? It's true because things being what they are belongs to a class of ideas that couldn't be any other way. It's impossible for something to not be what it is. It's this impossibility that makes the law of Identity an actual law. If it couldn't be any other way, then this Law of Logic can't be contingent on God.
Intelligibility implies an intelligence. It is similar to the SETI program. If there are just random signals from space then the SETI program ignores them but if they ever notice a pattern in the signals that are intelligible then they believe that points to an intelligence.
Yes, our intelligence.
 
Intelligibility implies an intelligence. It is similar to the SETI program. If there are just random signals from space then the SETI program ignores them but if they ever notice a pattern in the signals that are intelligible then they believe that points to an intelligence.
Forgive for the further reply to this, but I think I misunderstood you before.

The problem with this is that every time we have detected something non random from space, upon investigation it turns out to be a natural phenomenon. This means that intelligibility doesn't only come from intelligence.
 
At its most basic level, the argument from intelligibility (design) comes down to the category distinction between...

This...
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And this...
1634940685146.png
 
It's our ability to discern the difference between fine tuned and NOT fine tuned which is the origin of these categories.

If the entire universe was designed for life, life would be everywhere throughout the universe. So far we see no other life in any/every direction we look. We effectively ARE the centre of the universe.
 
It's our ability to discern the difference between fine tuned and NOT fine tuned which is the origin of these categories.

If the entire universe was designed for life, life would be everywhere throughout the universe. So far we see no other life in any/every direction we look. We effectively ARE the centre of the universe.
So, the universe isn't designed for life.
 
There are materialists/determinists who argue that nothing is fine tuned.
I argue that they should acknowledge there is an obvious and objective difference between designed and undesigned.

Appealing to randomness of the gaps or spontaneity of the gaps is worse than God of the gaps. (IMHO)

If God doesn't pass the Occam's Razor test, how much worse is infinite monkey theorem?

1634945519022.png
 
There are materialists/determinists who argue that nothing is fine tuned.
I argue that they should acknowledge there is an obvious and objective difference between designed and undesigned.
Is there? Often there are, but there are signals from space that are not random, but when investigated turn out to have natural explanations.
Appealing to randomness of the gaps or spontaneity of the gaps is worse than God of the gaps. (IMHO)
Not quite sure what you mean, but if the universe is natural, it can't be here randomly.
If God doesn't pass the Occam's Razor test, how much worse is infinite monkey theorem?
As I said, if the universe is natural, it can't be here by random means.
 
But according to Christianity, everything is designed.

I dont agree, but I accept there's the potential for a long (and boring) session of duelling verses where opposite points of view could both claim to be right.

God didn't design us to commit evil.
 
I dont agree, but I accept there's the potential for a long (and boring) session of duelling verses where opposite points of view could both claim to be right.

God didn't design us to commit evil.
So sand dunes are somehow the product of human free will?
 
We received this signal from space 53 years ago.
"That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."
Btw, you got the quote wrong, but then Armstrong got his lines wrong. You quoted what it was intended for him to say and makes perfect sense.

He missed the "a" out.
 
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