Should Women Be Ordained Into the Roman Catholic Priesthood?

RayneBeau

Well-known member
This question is being asked more and more frequently in the Roman Catholic Church. What are your thoughts?
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
This question is being asked more and more frequently in the Roman Catholic Church. What are your thoughts?

Seriously? Imagine the impact of a bunch of liberal women on Catholicism. I don't want to stereotype them but the climate in the church indicates that women should be seen and not heard. The next question is what effect will feminism have upon an already feminist clergy?

On the other hand there might be another Justice Amy Barrett! God bless her.

I come from a serious Baptist background. The Apostle Paul made it clear that women should not be teachers of men. Certainly not the clergy. However Paul used Priscilla, Junias, etc., to help spread the gospel.

Posted by permission of Josheb, the author:

Junias and Priscilla were women apostles.

Romans 16:3-7
"Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses.

Acts 21:7-9
"When we had finished the voyage from Tyre, we arrived at Ptolemais, and after greeting the brethren, we stayed with them for a day. On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses."

The prophet Joel foretold of the day when God would pour out his Spirit and both sons and daughters would prophesy. At Pentecost Peter declared that prophesy beginning its fulfillment.

Joel 2:28-29
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."

Acts 2:14-17 (ESV)
"But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: 'Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams...'"

According to Acts 1:12-14 it is likely Mary was present at Pentecost and among the disciples upon whom the Holy Spirit fell.

Acts 1:12-14 (NASB)
"Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."



Bottom line I don't believe that women should be part of an ordained clergy.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Seriously? Imagine the impact of a bunch of liberal women on Catholicism. I don't want to stereotype them but the climate in the church indicates that women should be seen and not heard. The next question is what effect will feminism have upon an already feminist clergy?

On the other hand there might be another Justice Amy Barrett! God bless her.

I come from a serious Baptist background. The Apostle Paul made it clear that women should not be teachers of men. Certainly not the clergy. However Paul used Priscilla, Junias, etc., to help spread the gospel.

Posted by permission of Josheb, the author:

Junias and Priscilla were women apostles.

Romans 16:3-7
"Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses.

Acts 21:7-9
"When we had finished the voyage from Tyre, we arrived at Ptolemais, and after greeting the brethren, we stayed with them for a day. On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses."

The prophet Joel foretold of the day when God would pour out his Spirit and both sons and daughters would prophesy. At Pentecost Peter declared that prophesy beginning its fulfillment.

Joel 2:28-29
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."

Acts 2:14-17 (ESV)
"But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: 'Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams...'"

According to Acts 1:12-14 it is likely Mary was present at Pentecost and among the disciples upon whom the Holy Spirit fell.

Acts 1:12-14 (NASB)
"Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."



Bottom line I don't believe that women should be part of an ordained clergy.
I don't either and my church doesn't allow it. Once a church does, it becomes a slippery slope towards other liberalisms. But that is for another board.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
C. S. Lewis (an Anglican) made an interesting point: the priest is representing God to the people. God is masculine. End of story.
Of course, nowadays society WILLS to not see this. :(
 

Bonnie

Super Member
C. S. Lewis (an Anglican) made an interesting point: the priest is representing God to the people. God is masculine. End of story.
Of course, nowadays society WILLS to not see this. :(
Jesus is masculine, being human....but God is spirit, and spirit has no gender. However, the Bible calls Him our "Father" not our "mother" and I don't believe in changing Scripture. :)
 
This question is being asked more and more frequently in the Roman Catholic Church. What are your thoughts?
The problem with a lot of the leftists who consider themselves Catholic and support women's ordination is that they have a Protestant notion of what it means to be ordained. Every "Catholic" women's ordination proponent I have discussed this issue with has a Protestant understanding of ministry and ordination. To put this in technical jargon; women's ordination proponents tend to reject the idea of a Ministerial Priesthood, believing instead that there is only the priesthood of the baptized.

When I taught theology I would ask my students "Who here thinks women should be ordained?" Many would raise their hand. I would then ask "What is a priest?" No one would raise their hand. I would then say "Let me get this straight: many of you think women should be ordained, yet none of you can tell me what a priest is? Don't you think we need to understand what a priest is before we can talk about women's ordination?" Then the students one by one would start telling me what they think a priest is: a priest helps people, a priest teaches people, a priest helps the poor, a priest is a community organizer, a priest leads church, etc. All of this is true, but none of this gets at what a priest is in essence.

In the Protestant sects, the only difference between the people in the pews and the minister is that the minister (presumably) has some formal theological training, ministerial training, and a commission from either the sect or if the Church is independent, the elders/trustees to act in the name of the congregation and represent the people to the wider community. Note that there is no ontological difference between the minister and people.

In the Catholic Faith, the essence of the priesthood is sacrifice. A priest offers the atonement sacrifice. A priest is an "icon of Christ" that is, the priest stands in persona Christi when celebrating the sacraments and the Mass. It is Christ who is working through the priest. Because Christ is the great high priest, because Christ is male, because the one who offered the once for all sacrifice of atonement, those who are his "icons" must also be male. There is a reason God incarnated as a male and not a female and it has nothing to do with cultural expectations of the time--but that is another discussion. Priests in the Catholic Faith are ontologically different then the people in the pew. They have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders (Ministerial Priesthood) so that they can function as icons of Christ.

The point here is that------if Catholics understood ministry and "priesthood" like the Protestants, then there is no reason that we can see that women should not be ordained. But we aren't Protestant and we do not understand priesthood and ministry like Protestants. This, by the way--was news to the Protestants when I was in college. We had an inter-seminary/collegiate seminar. When the discussion of the priesthood came up, at the end of the discussion, the Protestants, in particular the Lutherans were amazed to find out that we have very different understandings of priesthood and ministry. To us Catholics, this was manifestly obvious and we were shocked the Protestants didn't realize this--as this is--after all---part of the reason there are Protestants in the first place! The whole Protestant system (reformation) is based in part on a rejection of the Ministerial Priesthood. Truth is, though, unfortunately most Protestants I deal with--aren't like the ones here at CARM. In other words--they really have no idea of their heritage, and seem to think the Christian sects exist as a matter of taste--that the difference between Catholics and Protestants is akin to the difference between Dominos and Pizza Hut.

Rare is the Protestant I meet who can even tell me what Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are or why they are the twin pillars of Protestantism.
 
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Nondenom40

Well-known member
The problem with a lot of the leftists who consider themselves Catholic and support women's ordination is that they have a Protestant notion of what it means to be ordained. Every "Catholic" women's ordination proponent I have discussed this issue with has a Protestant understanding of ministry and ordination. To put this in technical jargon; women's ordination proponents tend to reject the idea of a Ministerial Priesthood, believing instead that there is only the priesthood of the baptized.

When I taught theology I would ask my students "Who here thinks women should be ordained?" Many would raise their hand. I would then ask "What is a priest?" No one would raise their hand. I would then say "Let me get this straight: many of you think women should be ordained, yet none of you can tell me what a priest is? Don't you think we need to understand what a priest is before we can talk about women's ordination?" Then the students one by one would start telling me what they think a priest is: a priest helps people, a priest teaches people, a priest helps the poor, a priest is a community organizer, a priest leads church, etc. All of this is true, but none of this gets at what a priest is in essence.

In the Protestant sects, the only difference between the people in the pews and the minister is that the minister (presumably) has some formal theological training, ministerial training, and a commission from either the sect or if the Church is independent, the elders/trustees to act in the name of the congregation and represent the people to the wider community. Note that there is no ontological difference between the minister and people.

In the Catholic Faith, the essence of the priesthood is sacrifice. A priest offers the atonement sacrifice. A priest is an "icon of Christ" that is, the priest stands in persona Christi when celebrating the sacraments and the Mass. It is Christ who is working through the priest. Because Christ is the great high priest, because Christ is male, because the one who offered the once for all sacrifice of atonement, those who are his "icons" must also be male. There is a reason God incarnated as a male and not a female and it has nothing to do with cultural expectations of the time--but that is another discussion. Priests in the Catholic Faith are ontologically different then the people in the pew. They have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders (Ministerial Priesthood) so that they can function as icons of Christ.

The point here is that------if Catholics understood ministry and "priesthood" like the Protestants, then there is no reason that we can see that women should not be ordained. But we aren't Protestant and we do not understand priesthood and ministry like Protestants. This, by the way--was news to the Protestants when I was in college. We had an inter-seminary/collegiate seminar. When the discussion of the priesthood came up, at the end of the discussion, the Protestants, in particular the Lutherans were amazed to find out that we have very different understandings of priesthood and ministry. To us Catholics, this was manifestly obvious and we were shocked the Protestants didn't realize this--as this is--after all---part of the reason there are Protestants in the first place! The whole Protestant system (reformation) is based in part on a rejection of the Ministerial Priesthood. Truth is, though, unfortunately most Protestants I deal with--aren't like the ones here at CARM. In other words--they really have no idea of their heritage, and seem to think the Christian sects exist as a matter of taste--that the difference between Catholics and Protestants is akin to the difference between Dominos and Pizza Hut.

Rare is the Protestant I meet who can even tell me what Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are or why they are the twin pillars of Protestantism.
The problem with a lot of the leftists who consider themselves Catholic and support women's ordination is that they have a Protestant notion of what it means to be ordained. Every "Catholic" women's ordination proponent I have discussed this issue with has a Protestant understanding of ministry and ordination. To put this in technical jargon; women's ordination proponents tend to reject the idea of a Ministerial Priesthood, believing instead that there is only the priesthood of the baptized.

You taught theology and this is your idea of 'protestant understanding'? Honestly, in my life i've never heard that our idea of the priesthood is 'of the baptized.' Since biblically baptism doesn't bring one into His church, baptism isn't our gauge for who is a christian or who is a priest. Ours is the priesthood of believers, those born again. And you don't need to get dunked to be born again. So your idea of womens ordination is wrong.

In the Catholic Faith, the essence of the priesthood is sacrifice.

And that sacrifice you'll find nowhere in the n.t. The catholic priesthood not only does not exist but is unnecessary. The one sacrifice is over, done. Its effects are eternal.

A priest offers the atonement sacrifice.

Not possible. Jesus did it on the cross. Not a priest at an altar with a piece of bread. And a sinful priest can't 'offer' an atoning sacrifice in the first place. Jesus is the only sinless, spotless lamb.

A priest is an "icon of Christ" that is, the priest stands in persona Christi when celebrating the sacraments and the Mass. It is Christ who is working through the priest.

Said the bible nowhere. This is the false teaching of your church, not scripture.

if Catholics understood ministry and "priesthood" like the Protestants, then there is no reason that we can see that women should not be ordained.

Another straw man. You don't understand ministry or the priesthood. And our church doesn't ordain women. And for that matter we don't let just anyone speak from the pulpit either.

The whole Protestant system (reformation) is based in part on a rejection of the Ministerial Priesthood.

Because it doesn't exist in the n.t.

that the difference between Catholics and Protestants is akin to the difference between Dominos and Pizza Hut.

Unfortunately that is very true. Many people that call themselves christians don't know the many heresies or theology of catholicism and think (wrongly) that they are under the umbrella of Christianity. Catholicism is an entirely different religion than what we see in the n.t.

Rare is the Protestant I meet who can even tell me what Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are or why they are the twin pillars of Protestantism.

Rarer still is the catholic that accurately defines sola scriptura or sola fide. And since many sects/faiths/religions fall under protestantism they are not the twin pillars of many of those other faiths. Again, painting with a broad brush.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Actually we can't run it any way we want. We are bound by God's Word.
You mean, the pope's words, don't you? And the Magisterium's words? If your church was actually bound by God's words, the Bible, it would not forbid its priests marriage, since Paul said elders and bishops should only have one wife, well-run households, and respectful children.
 
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RayneBeau

Well-known member
You mean, the pope's words, don't you? And the Magisterium's words? If your church was actually bound you God's words, the Bible,it would not forbid its priests marriage, since Paul said elders and bishops should only have one wife, well-run households, and respectful children.
Right Bonnie, and the Roman Catholic Church position strongly reiterated by Roman Catholic Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II's words emphatically state that women should not be ordained. The following are some of the Roman Catholic Church's 'eye-opening' reasons put forth against the ordination of women:

* Jesus did not want women to function in a priestly capacity.

* Ordained Roman Catholic priests act officially in the person of Jesus Christ when celebrating Mass, and only a male priest can represent Christ, who was Himself a male.

* The apostles didn't choose women to fill the place of Judas.

* Jesus did not call Mary to be one of His apostles, therefore it is not the will of God that women be ordained.

* Women are complementary to men, but fulfill different functions in life.

* Ordaining women is against the long tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.

* Ordination is not a right; it is a special call from God. Women do not have the right to be ordained.



* Catholicism Today: A Survey of Catholic Belief and Practice
 
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balshan

Well-known member
This question is being asked more and more frequently in the Roman Catholic Church. What are your thoughts?
I remember reading about John Wesley and women preachers. He asked his mother about it, as it happened. Her reply was just pray and see if God is working. He did not stop the women as he saw God working. I don't have a problem with either male or female pastors so long as they preach the truth.

The problem with the RCC is it does not matter whether it is male or female priests, they will still be wolves in sheep's clothing. They will teach false doctrines.
 

balshan

Well-known member
The problem with a lot of the leftists who consider themselves Catholic and support women's ordination is that they have a Protestant notion of what it means to be ordained. Every "Catholic" women's ordination proponent I have discussed this issue with has a Protestant understanding of ministry and ordination. To put this in technical jargon; women's ordination proponents tend to reject the idea of a Ministerial Priesthood, believing instead that there is only the priesthood of the baptized.

When I taught theology I would ask my students "Who here thinks women should be ordained?" Many would raise their hand. I would then ask "What is a priest?" No one would raise their hand. I would then say "Let me get this straight: many of you think women should be ordained, yet none of you can tell me what a priest is? Don't you think we need to understand what a priest is before we can talk about women's ordination?" Then the students one by one would start telling me what they think a priest is: a priest helps people, a priest teaches people, a priest helps the poor, a priest is a community organizer, a priest leads church, etc. All of this is true, but none of this gets at what a priest is in essence.

In the Protestant sects, the only difference between the people in the pews and the minister is that the minister (presumably) has some formal theological training, ministerial training, and a commission from either the sect or if the Church is independent, the elders/trustees to act in the name of the congregation and represent the people to the wider community. Note that there is no ontological difference between the minister and people.

In the Catholic Faith, the essence of the priesthood is sacrifice. A priest offers the atonement sacrifice. A priest is an "icon of Christ" that is, the priest stands in persona Christi when celebrating the sacraments and the Mass. It is Christ who is working through the priest. Because Christ is the great high priest, because Christ is male, because the one who offered the once for all sacrifice of atonement, those who are his "icons" must also be male. There is a reason God incarnated as a male and not a female and it has nothing to do with cultural expectations of the time--but that is another discussion. Priests in the Catholic Faith are ontologically different then the people in the pew. They have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders (Ministerial Priesthood) so that they can function as icons of Christ.

The point here is that------if Catholics understood ministry and "priesthood" like the Protestants, then there is no reason that we can see that women should not be ordained. But we aren't Protestant and we do not understand priesthood and ministry like Protestants. This, by the way--was news to the Protestants when I was in college. We had an inter-seminary/collegiate seminar. When the discussion of the priesthood came up, at the end of the discussion, the Protestants, in particular the Lutherans were amazed to find out that we have very different understandings of priesthood and ministry. To us Catholics, this was manifestly obvious and we were shocked the Protestants didn't realize this--as this is--after all---part of the reason there are Protestants in the first place! The whole Protestant system (reformation) is based in part on a rejection of the Ministerial Priesthood. Truth is, though, unfortunately most Protestants I deal with--aren't like the ones here at CARM. In other words--they really have no idea of their heritage, and seem to think the Christian sects exist as a matter of taste--that the difference between Catholics and Protestants is akin to the difference between Dominos and Pizza Hut.

Rare is the Protestant I meet who can even tell me what Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are or why they are the twin pillars of Protestantism.
Rare is the RCC who can even tell us what Sola scriptura and Sola Fide mean. They have no understanding of them whatsoever.

The priest is a symbolic of paganism in the RCC. They teach false doctrines and Jesus does not need to be sacrificed over and over again.
 
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