Simple Question for Gryllus

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Didn’t you say that τὸν θεον in John 1:1b is not τὸν πατέρα?

Are you admitting that πρὸς τὸν πατέρα in 1 John 1:2 means the same thing as πρὸς τὸν θεον in John 1:1b ?


I’m only talking about the two phrases ..πρὸς τὸν πατέρα in 1 John 1:2 and ..πρὸς τὸν θεον in John 1:1b. In other words ἥτις (ἡ ζωή ἡ αἰώνιος) ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα in 1 John 1:2 is a rephrasing /paraphrasing of John 1:1b. True or False?
Oh, I see. I thought you were referring to the prepositional phrase -- hard to keep track when so much is scattered around so many posts. No, in John 1:1, John is simply identifying God as God without further distinction. In 1 John 1:2, he specifically identifies the Father. Two different contexts and two different directions.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I disagree. Clearly apostle John is presenting some different pieces of information in 1 John 1:1-2 than he is in John 1:1. But it is also equally clear that he is reiterating at least one idea from John 1:1 in 1 John 1:2 by paraphrase, namely when he writes ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα . Compare that with καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν. It is unmistakable.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I think every sane reader of the bible (even if not holy spirit inspired ) understands this. So for instance on this score Trinitarian Barnes:

Which was with the Father - Always before the manifestation on the earth. See John 1:1. "The word was with God."

Basically, one has to be EXTRA blind to not see this one on one interchange between "God" in John 1:1b and "the Father" in 1 John 1:2.. So in the pecking order of Biblical reading comprehension , I fear that Gryllus falls at very much the bottom of the pile, even among those who approach the scriptures from a Trinitarian or other heretical perspective.
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
I disagree. Clearly apostle John is presenting some different pieces of information in 1 John 1:1-2 than he is in John 1:1. But it is also equally clear that he is reiterating at least one idea from John 1:1 in 1 John 1:2 by paraphrase, namely when he writes ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα . Compare that with καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν. It is unmistakable.
Each work has to be viewed on its own as well as within the entire canon. Each work has its own purpose and invites its own reading strategy. Of course they are parallel statements. Eventually in John 1 it becomes clear that θεός = ὁ πατήρ in clear distinction from θεός = ὁ υἱός. But John doesn't start that way, and develops the distinction for his readers as he pursues his discourse. For the churches in reception of his 1st letter, that distinction is clearly established, and there is no reason to develop it in the way that he does in his gospel.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Each work has to be viewed on its own as well as within the entire canon. Each work has its own purpose and invites its own reading strategy. Of course they are parallel statements. Eventually in John 1 it becomes clear that θεός = ὁ πατήρ in clear distinction from θεός = ὁ υἱός. But John doesn't start that way, and develops the distinction for his readers as he pursues his discourse. For the churches in reception of his 1st letter, that distinction is clearly established, and there is no reason to develop it in the way that he does in his gospel.
Bold above ( Trinity doctrine) is the cause of your blindness starting as early as John 1:1b. It is why you cannot see that apostle John was paraphrasing at 1 John 1:2 (ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα) what he said in John 1:1b, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν .
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Following came to my remembrance:

ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου ἐτύφλωσεν τὰ νοήματα τῶν ἀπίστων εἰς τὸ μὴ αὐγάσαι τὸν φωτισμὸν τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τῆς δόξης τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ.

2 Cor. 4:4
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Bold above ( Trinity doctrine) is the cause of your blindness starting as early as John 1:1b. It is why you cannot see that apostle John was paraphrasing at 1 John 1:2 (ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα) what he said in John 1:1b, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν .
As you are fond of saying, that is not an argument. You are not interacting with the claims, just trying to ad hominem them to death.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
As you are fond of saying, that is not an argument. You are not interacting with the claims, just trying to ad hominem them to death.
Ofcourse it is an argument. Moreover, it is an indisputable one. Here it is again: 1John 1:2 (ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα) is a paraphrase of John 1:1b ( καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν ). No one, not even Trinitarians seriously deny this. Only you, the EXTRA lost.
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Ofcourse it is an argument. Moreover, it is an indisputable one. Here it is again: 1John 1:2 (ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα) is a paraphrase of John 1:1b ( καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν ). No one, not even Trinitarians seriously deny this. Only you, the EXTRA lost.
They are not paraphrases of one another. They express parallel truths, written independently, and again for quite different purposes.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
They are not paraphrases of one another.

They are because of the identical syntax, for starters.


They express parallel truths, written independently, and again for quite different purposes.

Don't know what sort of "parallel truths" they could possibly be expressing if ὁ θεός in John 1:1b means something other than ὁ πατήρ ? What / who exactly is ὁ θεός in John 1:1b ? Is it a something, or a someone ? You can't just say that "John" leaves this most important word "undefined" here. Because then he would not be saying anything coherent at all in the clause.

Here is the first rule of biblical exegesis : Biblical words must be given biblical definitions. What do we know of the apostle's definition of ὁ θεός from a full reading of his gospel and Epistles ? That He is the Father. Take it from Jesus:

ἐργάζεσθε μὴ τὴν βρῶσιν τὴν ἀπολλυμένην, ἀλλὰ τὴν βρῶσιν τὴν μένουσαν εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, ἣν ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὑμῖν δώσει· τοῦτον γὰρ ὁ Πατὴρ ἐσφράγισεν ὁ Θεός.

John 6:27

So every time you see the articular Θεός in the apostle John's writings, you got to think "the Father" (ὁ Πατὴρ) or you are going to be completely lost.
 
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