Simply Take God At His Word

Buzzard said:
2Cor.4:5
For we preach not ourselves,
but Christ Jesus the Lord;

and Arch says
You are most definitely in imperfect communion. [2Cor4:4]

Arch Stanton said:
Quoi? You were given a cerveau by God

Au Contraire Mon Capitan! (Deja Q) -- AD 33 is not late, 1518 is quite late!!! ;) ?

You are most definitely in imperfect communion. [2Cor4:4]
================================

For we preach not ourselves,​

all puffed up in their Fleshly mind
reject those heretics
so sayth Paul




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Catholics on here certainly like to boast about their church and its supposed "pedigree." But Paul says if we boast about anything, it should be about Christ Jesus our Lord. Notice that they never seem to boast about HIM.
 
Arch Stanton said:
The shame is not understanding history
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We understand it just fine. What IS a shame is making up stuff and passing it off as history.
Arch Stanton said:
in imperfect communion with Christ's Church
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Your church isn't Christ's church--not by a long shot, since it has become corrupt, and for many centuries has taught for doctrine the precepts of men, thus worshiping God in vain. We don't need to be in perfect communion with your heterodoxical church. We can however, be in perfect communion with Jesus Christ our Lord by grace through faith in HIM and what He did for us on the cross and did completely!
 
1Thess521 said:
Christians gathered into a collection all known God breathed writings.

Prior to those provincial councils;
there was widespread agreement on the 27 book NT Canon; with a just few pockets of disagreement over a few of the books .

After those provincial councils;
there was widespread agreement on the 27 book NT Canon; with a just few pockets of disagreement over a few of the books .

Do you think Irenaeus (born 130AD) was the only one who held that there are only 4 Gospels (no more no less)?
Do you think Athanasius (c.367) was the only one to hold to the 27 book Canon?
What conference, committee or council told Irenaeus and Athanasius what books were inspired?

Why don't you tell us how Polycarp (born 65 AD) quoted writings and called them Scripture.
WHO TOLD POLYCARP ?
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Oh, NOW the early church fathers are wise and devout followers instead of fallible men.
 
pilgrim said:
Oh, NOW the early church fathers are wise and devout followers instead of fallible men.
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a person can be both

all men are fallible and some men are wise and devout followers

over the last 2000 years, how many infallible men have walked the earth?
How many infallible men are on earth right now?
 
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Arch Stanton said:
Luther was a heretic!!!
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In a book entitled, Martin Luther: Prophet to the Catholic Church by James Atkinson, the author cites the opinion of a Roman Catholic scholar (Hubert Jedin) that, “Catholicism never condemned Luther by name at Trent, and that no official judgment on Luther exists by which a loyal Catholic is bound.”

If this is true, why would you go above the Magisterium and make your own dogmatic pronouncement?
 
Tertiumquid said:
In a book entitled, Martin Luther: Prophet to the Catholic Church by James Atkinson, the author cites the opinion of a Roman Catholic scholar (Hubert Jedin) that, “Catholicism never condemned Luther by name at Trent, and that no official judgment on Luther exists by which a loyal Catholic is bound.”

If this is true, why would you go above the Magisterium and make your own dogmatic pronouncement?
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...Luther’s writings were an attack on the office of the papacy and of papal authority given by Christ in Matthew 16:18-19. In his Sermon on Indulgences and Grace Luther declared he did not believe indulgences had any benefit for the souls in purgatory, and in his Explanations of the Disputations on the Power of Indulgences he denied papal power extended to souls in purgatory. Luther’s attack on papal authority paved the way for his later demolition of the entire sacramental system and call for a national German church separated from Rome. Luther’s teachings were not reforms intended to return the Church to its pristine state but rather a rebellion designed to destroy the Church and create a new entity in Luther’s image.

These writings were studied in Rome, and in July 1518 a formal charge of “suspicion of disseminating heresy” was lodged against Luther. He was ordered to come to Rome to answer the charge within sixty days. Luther refused to leave Germany, claiming ill health and a fear for his safety. Although Leo could have enacted sterner measures against the recalcitrant monk, he chose the path of mercy and sent a personal envoy to meet with Luther and bring about his reconciliation....

Leo promulgated a bull on indulgences a month later in which he reiterated Church teaching, so that Luther and others could not feign ignorance. Despite this papal document Luther continued to preach against Church teaching.

Given Luther’s recalcitrance, on June 15, 1520 Leo issued the bull Exsurge Domine. In it Leo urged the Lord to arise and vindicate the cause of the Church against the heresies emanating from Germany. The document listed forty-one teachings contained in the works of Luther that were “either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth.” ...Leo included one more exhortation to Luther to recant, giving him sixty days to do so or else incur excommunication.

Luther responded by publishing a treatise entitled Against the Execrable Bull of Antichrist. He called Leo the Antichrist and wrote the purpose of the papal bull was to “compel men to deny God and worship the devil” (The Cleaving of Christendom: A History of Christendom). Later in the year Luther staged a public burning of Exsurge Domine and told his followers that whoever “does not resist the papacy with all his heart cannot obtain eternal salvation” (Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes).

CA Steve Weidenkopf 'Leo and Luther...' 6/17
 
Arch Stanton said:
CA Steve Weidenkopf 'Leo and Luther...' 6/17
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For clarification, are you saying that the opinion of Steve Weidenkopf sets the infallible standard for how Roman Catholics are to understand Martin Luther? If so, if I present other Roman Catholic opinions about Luther that are contrary, are those opinions violating a Roman Catholic infallible standard?

Thanks.
 
Tertiumquid said:
For clarification, are you saying that the opinion of Steve Weidenkopf sets the infallible standard for how Roman Catholics are to understand Martin Luther? If so, if I present other Roman Catholic opinions about Luther that are contrary, are those opinions violating a Roman Catholic infallible standard?

Thanks.
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Did you not send us opinions by James Atkinson and Hubert Jedin?
 
ramcam2 said:
Atemi said:
So all you have is Scripture?

Yup. That is about it!

So much for all those other words and writings Catholics say they have. They are frauds.
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nope, it is sacred scripture and sacred tradition as entrusted to the living teaching office of the church.
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Where are those words and writings from Paul that are not already recorded in Scripture?

If you don't have them, just leave it at that.

ramcam2 said:
The word 'trinity' is never mentioned in the bible and yet christians are using it. the first use of the word is in the writings of Theophilus of Antioch around A.D. 180 (To Autolycus 2:18). Theophilus is the 6th bishop from Peter. so, tell me where did we get the word 'Trinity'? the answer is not from the bible but from the oral tradition of the catholic church.
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You said the FIRST use of the word "Trinity" appeared in the 2nd century. That means the word did not come from Paul.

What other words or writings do you have that you want to claim are Paul's, but are not already included in Scripture?
 
Arch Stanton said:
Did you not send us opinions by James Atkinson and Hubert Jedin?
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I can appreciate the method of answering a question with a question. I've used it occasionally as well.

It appears by this method you are affirming exactly what I posted earlier from Atkinson's book. Thanks.
 
Tertiumquid said:
I can appreciate the method of answering a question with a question. I've used it occasionally as well.

It appears by this method you are affirming exactly what I posted earlier from Atkinson's book. Thanks.
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It appears does not always tell the rest of the story.... Paul Harvey comes to mind ;)
 
Arch Stanton said:
It appears does not always tell the rest of the story.... Paul Harvey comes to mind ;)
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When you're ready to actually engage the questions I've asked, I'd be interested in understanding how you've arrived at the epistemological certainty that Martin Luther is dogmatically and officially a heretic from a Roman Catholic perspective and if those Roman Catholics that hold a different perspective are dogmatically and officially in error.

Perhaps you've reached epistemological certainty from the writings of Steve Weidenkopf. If so, it would be helpful to the universal Roman Catholic church if his writings could be added to the Vatican website, and it would be useful also for the current (and future) Pope to be made aware of Mr. Weidenkopf's ability to infallibly interpret history. His ability could be extremely useful in solving a number of historical problems.
 
Tertiumquid said:
When you're ready to actually engage the questions I've asked, I'd be interested in understanding how you've arrived at the epistemological certainty that Martin Luther is dogmatically and officially a heretic from a Roman Catholic perspective and if those Roman Catholics that hold a different perspective are dogmatically and officially in error.
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Did you read the whole article with the Pope's responses, etc.? Come on James, it goes both ways --- you can give me a biography on Luther, I can give you the same about his separation from the Church he came from.

How about 'The Cleaving of Christendom: 1517-1661 A History of Christendom' vol. IV
Warren H. Carroll
 
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