Sin Nature... Like A Rock!

[Sketo]

Natural mans sin nature can be compared to a rocks intrinsic weight...

A rock naturally falls downward due to its intrinsic weight and the gravity of the world. If you put rock in your hand, and close your fingers around it, you can force rock to go in any direction you want it to! No other direction is available due to your fingers closed around it. This is not freedom!

If you open your fist, so that your hand is now flat and rock is laying on your palm, then you have made the up direction freely available but this does not mean rock has the ability to go up! It just means that rock has the freely available option to go up, if it ever so desires! a.k.a. “Free Choice”! This is a kind of extrinsic freedom, but availability does not equate to ability!

Now if your hand moves up then rock is forced (i.e. Grace) to go up, but if you move your hand down then rock goes down... but is not forced by hand. This is due to rocks natural bent towards the downward direction. The hand is not forcing the downward movement of rock... it’s allowing rock to do what rock naturally does when given freedom of any direction!

Keep in mind that rock is always pushing against hand and at any point hand can turn over and give rock over to the full effects of its own weight allowing rock complete freedom to fall as far as it wants. The only reason rock is not at its lowest point is due to the hand preventing it!

If it wasn’t for hand then rock would be on the ground!

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Determinism is the hand determining the height of the rock... and Determinism can be found in both “open” and “closed” hand scenarios, BUT “freedom” is only found in the “open hand” scenario!

The “closed hand” scenario only contains “determinism” without “freedom”... BUT...

The “open hand” scenario contains both “determinism” and “freedom”!

Many try to misrepresent Calvinism, and create a straw-man, by portraying Determinism as only the “closed” hand scenario... when the Determinism, of Calvinism, is actually the “open” hand scenario!

Click for A Practical Understanding of Calvinistic Determinism

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Libertarian Freewillism, on the other hand, says that rock can not be considered “truly free” unless Hand, Gravity, Weight and any other possible cause of direction is removed from the scenario... but this would create a “free-floating-neutral” rock... and if rock does move, in any direction, then the “cause” of the movement must remain a vague mystery!

Think about it... If the movement, in any direction, is explained by ANYTHING, other than a vague mystery, then it violates the very core meaning of Libertarianism! If there is any cause of movement that prevents rocks movement in another direction, like hand, gravity, weight, etc., then it is not allowed in the scenario otherwise you lose “libertarian freedom”! This is philosophical... not biblical!

The Bible never describes man in a “free-floating-neutral” sense!

Click for A Practical Understanding of Libertarian Freewillism

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The reason why Calvinists reject this “Libertarian Freewillism” is because the kind of “neutral” freedom it demands is not supported by the Bible... ANYWHERE!​

 

[PeanutGallery]

Natural mans sin nature can be compared to a rocks intrinsic weight......

Except that we are not rocks; rocks cannot positively respond to God's witnesses.

...
it’s allowing rock to do what rock naturally does when given freedom of any direction!
...
The “closed hand” scenario only contains “determinism” without “freedom”... BUT...

The “open hand” scenario contains both “determinism” and “freedom”!

'naturally does' with or without freedom is meticulously determined; therefore, not freedom.

 

[TibiasDad]

A rock naturally falls downward due to its intrinsic weight and the gravity of the world. If you put rock in your hand, and close your fingers around it, you can force rock to go in any direction you want it to! No other direction is available due to your fingers closed around it. This is not freedom!

All analogies are accurate only in a limited way. This one is extremely limited, because rocks are not moral, rational, and volitional beings. God doesn't close his fingers around us, but rather, graciously breaks the hold of sin upon us that not only gives us the availability to go up, but also the ability to go up!

The only reason rock is not at its lowest point is due to the hand preventing it!

And that is prevenient grace. Grace frees us to do that which we were created to do naturally, but kept from doing by the binding of the sinful nature of our desires and wills.

Now if your hand moves up then rock is forced (i.e. Grace) to go up, but if you move your hand down then rock goes down... but is not forced by hand. This is due to rocks natural bent towards the downward direction

Again, a rock is not a moral, rational, volitional being! A man is! A rock was not created to go upward in direction naturally. Men were! God's breaking of the chains of sin allows us to go in the natural direction we were created to go! Then only thing that we need is God's gracious movement toward us. "He breaks the power of cancelled sin, he sets the prisoner free" (Charles Wesley, O For a Thousand Tongues) to move, volitionally toward him and says, 'Draw near to me, and I will draw near to you!' (Jas 4:8), for "his blood can make the foulest clean, his blood avails for me!" (ibid Chas Wesley)


Doug

 

[Sketo]

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

 

[TibiasDad]

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

Apples and Oranges....

Doug

 

[PeanutGallery]

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

God works in the beloved; the context is not God works in the unregenerate.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Sketo]

God doesn't close his fingers around us,but rather, graciously breaks the hold of sin upon us that not only gives us the availability to go up, but also the ability to go up!

What does it mean “graciously breaks the hold of sin”? How does he do this?
We don’t have this “ability” naturally!

and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

Grace frees us to do that which we were created to do naturally

No we were not created to do good “naturally”! This is your error!
We were not created, by God, to function properly “naturally” on our own!

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

but kept from doing by the binding of the sinful nature of our desires and wills.

Kept from doing because of separation from God!
The fall freed us from God “working in us” through spiritual death!
This is why we are “by nature children of wrath”!
We are not designed to function properly on our own ever!

Again, a rock is not a moral, rational, volitional being!

Neither is fallen man “naturally” apart from the Grace of God!

A rock was not created to go upward in direction naturally.

Neither is fallen man “naturally” apart from the Grace of God!

God's breaking of the chains of sin allows us to go in the natural direction we were created to go!

Again... this is a philosophical error of assumption! Man is never freed to himself!

It would be better said “God's breaking of the chains of sin allows us to go in the supernatural direction we were created to go!”

Because it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

Without “God working in you” you would still be “by nature children of wrath”!

Then only thing that we need is God's gracious movement toward us.

Again... this is a philosophical error of assumption! This is NOT the “only” thing we need!

If God ever stopped “working in you” you would stop “willing and doing for his good pleasure” and “naturally” go back to being “dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

"He breaks the power of cancelled sin, he sets the prisoner free"

He does not do this by “turning you over to yourself”! He does this by continually working the “faith” in you, the “faith that overcomes the world”!

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. - 1 John 5:4

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

Excerpt from “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” - by Robert Robinson

O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I’m constrained to be!
Let Thy goodness, like a fetter,
Bind my wandering heart to Thee.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

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Freedom from God is bondage to sin!
Freedom from God is no freedom at all!​

 

[Sketo]

Except that we are not rocks; rocks cannot positively respond to God's witnesses.

Good point! Neither can branches, or trees, or wheat, or tares, or even goats, or sheep...

'naturally does' with or without freedom is meticulously determined; therefore, not freedom.

Good point... not “free-floating-neutral”! I agree!

Libertarian Freewillism, on the other hand, says that rock can not be considered “truly free” unless Hand, Gravity, Weight and any other possible cause of direction is removed from the scenario... but this would create a “free-floating-neutral” rock... and if rock does move, in any direction, then the “cause” of the movement must remain a vague mystery!

Think about it... If the movement, in any direction, is explained by ANYTHING, other than a vague mystery, then it violates the very core meaning of Libertarianism! If there is any cause of movement that prevents rocks movement in another direction, like hand, gravity, weight, etc., then it is not allowed in the scenario otherwise you lose “libertarian freedom”! This is philosophical... not biblical!

The Bible never describes man in a “free-floating-neutral” sense!

Click for A Practical Understanding of Libertarian Freewillism

 

[ReverendRV]

All analogies are accurate only in a limited way. This one is extremely limited, because rocks are not moral, rational, and volitional beings. God doesn't close his fingers around us, but rather, graciously breaks the hold of sin upon us that not only gives us the availability to go up, but also the ability to go up!


And that is prevenient grace. Grace frees us to do that which we were created to do naturally, but kept from doing by the binding of the sinful nature of our desires and wills.


Again, a rock is not a moral, rational, volitional being! A man is! A rock was not created to go upward in direction naturally. Men were! God's breaking of the chains of sin allows us to go in the natural direction we were created to go! Then only thing that we need is God's gracious movement toward us. "He breaks the power of cancelled sin, he sets the prisoner free" (Charles Wesley, O For a Thousand Tongues) to move, volitionally toward him and says, 'Draw near to me, and I will draw near to you!' (Jas 4:8), for "his blood can make the foulest clean, his blood avails for me!" (ibid Chas Wesley)


Doug

How would the OP's analogy work with let's say; a Homing Pigeon instead of a rock?

Or a wolverine?

 

[TibiasDad]

How would the OP's analogy work with let's say; a Homing Pigeon instead of a rock?

Or a wolverine?

Neither are moral, rational, volitional beings, but the pigeon's nature is to fly, as man's is to move toward relationship with God. As a Buckeye, I find Wolverines to have less ability than a rock!

Doug

 

[SovereignGrace]

Neither are moral, rational, volitional beings, but the pigeon's nature is to fly, as man's is to move toward relationship with God. As a Buckeye, I find Wolverines to have less ability than a rock!

Doug

Ermmm, that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible says there are none who understand, there are none who seek God[Romans 3:11]. Notice what Adam and Eve did when they heard God’s voice. He and Eve ran like scalded dogs and hid. It was God who sought them, not vice versa.

 

[TomFL]

Ermmm, that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible says there are none who understand, there are none who seek God[Romans 3:11]. Notice what Adam and Eve did when they heard God’s voice. He and Eve ran like scalded dogs and hid. It was God who sought them, not vice versa.

2 Chr. 11:16 —ESV
“And those who had set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came after them from all the tribes of Israel to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the LORD, the God of their fathers.”

2 Chr. 19:3 —ESV
“Nevertheless, some good is found in you, for you destroyed the Asheroth out of the land, and have set your heart to seek God.””

2 Chr. 20:3 —ESV
“Then Jehoshaphat was afraid and set his face to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.”

2 Chr. 20:4 —ESV
“And Judah assembled to seek help from the LORD; from all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.”

2 Chr. 34:3 —ESV
“For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet a boy, he began to seek the God of David his father, and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem of the high places, the Asherim, and the carved and the metal images.”

you may have to modify that statement

 

[SovereignGrace]

Proof texting is an enemy of the church, especially when devoid of context. But -power away!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I posted a verse, another guy posted a bunch of verses devoid of ANY context, to contradict what Paul wrote, who was building upon David’s writing in Psalm 14. He’s causing scripture to butt heads with scripture just like his hero. Carry on -powering away.

 

[TibiasDad]

Proof texting is an enemy of the church, especially when devoid of context. But -power away!!!

Says he who proof texted Rom 3:11 and alludes to Gen 3:8.

Doug

 

[SovereignGrace]

Says he who proof texted Rom 3:11 and alludes to Gen 3:8.

Doug

The Bible says no one seeks God. I used the Genesis account to provide proof of it. This is also found in Psalm 14. No one seeks God, it’s that plan. God is the one who seeks His sheep.

 

[PeanutGallery]

The Bible says no one seeks God. I used the Genesis account to provide proof of it. This is also found in Psalm 14. No one seeks God, it’s that plan. God is the one who seeks His sheep.

the fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

the fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Agreed. So?

 

[TibiasDad]

Ermmm, that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible says there are none who understand, there are none who seek God[Romans 3:11]. Notice what Adam and Eve did when they heard God’s voice. He and Eve ran like scalded dogs and hid. It was God who sought them, not vice versa.

I find it several things interesting in this rebuttal:

1) The writers, Isaiah and Paul, obviously understood and sought God so the "none" doesn't mean absolutely every person, does it? It's funny how Cals are so quick to decry the use of "all" as meaning all individuals, but when the negative absolute, none, is used it necessarily means every single person.

2) You read Rom 3:11 literally, but seem to indicate that the verses Tom cites, such as 2 Chr. 34:3, cannot be contextually literal. Tom's citations are indicative statements of infallible scripture. They can be nothing but literal statements about people seeking God. So both cannot be absolutely literal without destroying the integrity of Scripture.

3) Why do you think Adam and Eve hid? Because they understood that they had sinned, that they had changed, that they could not stand unashamed in the presence of God. They understood perfectly!


Doug

 

[TomFL]

Proof texting is an enemy of the church, especially when devoid of context. But -power away!!!

Care to exegete the verses to try to get them to say they did not seek G

Agreed. So?

So read the original reference

Psa. 14:1–7 —KJV
Ҧ The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
¶ Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

The generation of the righteous ????????????

Ah

The none that do Good were the worker of iniquity

Not the generation of the righteous

Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.”