Sin nature,

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
No. She is just trying to look clever by pretending the article is her own work.

You read minds? Whattaya know? A self righteous Kreskin.

No, to protect CARM.

You seriously think your narcing might have saved CARM from dissolution?

Ah, I see. You will not comment on whether something is morally right or wrong,

Correct. I WILL comment (mostly via my inner thoughts to myself) on whether something I am doing is morally right or wrong.

but you will comment on whether it is annoying to you.

Correct.

As long as we are clear that you are not saying I am in the wrong here, that is fine. To be honest, I can live with it if what I do is annoying to stiggy wiggy!

I don't recall asking you whether or not you could live with my looking upon you as the great annoyance you are, but I can definitely live with you living with it.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
You read minds? Whattaya know? A self righteous Kreskin.
I read human nature. I cannot be absolutely certain, but it is almost certain ferengi pretended to author that copy-and-pasted article to impress people, to make her appear clever.

You seriously think your narcing might have saved CARM from dissolution?
I think it reduced the risk. Apparently the mods agree with me, given they deleted the thread.

I don't recall asking you whether or not you could live with my looking upon you as the great annoyance you are, but I can definitely live with you living with it.
I do not recall saying you asked.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
You appear to be doing the job all by yourself.
How so? Do you think it is morally wrong to tell the authorities when a law is being broken?

If you saw a burglary in progress, would you call the cops? Or just ignore it?

Got to be honest, I am having a hard time understanding the Christian position on this. CARM has certain rules, and those rules are there for a reason. Breaking those rules is wrong. Even if you disagree with the rules, this place belongs to them, so they get to make the rules. You agree to that when you sign up with an account.

Apparently the Christian position is that breaking those rules is fine, and it is reporting rule breaking to the mods that is the real crime.
 

Furion

Well-known member

Really?

Here is how so.

You appear to be doing the job all by yourself.

Was she wearing socks at the time?

Seems an easier thing to know than her motivations.

If you don't want thought of as a bad person, quit being an insufferable pharisee.

Apparently the Christian position is that breaking those rules is fine, and it is reporting rule breaking to the mods that is the real crime.

I'm not a board cop, I don't care.

If it was up to me you wouldn't be able to step foot anywhere but the atheist forum. Others wouldn't even allow you here at all. The "atheist position" is just subdermal irritation maybe. You do realize there is no "christian position", right?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
There is simply no reason to believe this.
Actually, there is every reason to believe it.
But, if you actually want to think that this world is all there is, here's a novel idea for you.
Wait until it's too late to do anything to change your state. Not something I recommend for anyone. But, since the only real reason why people would want to follow Jesus is because they recognize they are sinners in need of a savior, this is where we meet him.

There is no argument good enough to even be considered an argument for this position.
Oh... well then....
You don't know much, do you!
Apparently atheists aren't as educated as they want us to believe they are.

Jesus came to save sinners.
So, unless, and until you recognize that simple fact, you'll remain stuck in your state.
Arguments for this position aren't pretending to be good, they're pretending to be arguments.
I see you've never actually read the bible either.

We don't base our faith on arguments. Arguments can be outdone by increasingly educated people. So, if you don't actually want to know God, then someone who has a more erudite argument can readily argue you out of your beliefs.
Here's the basis for this one.

1Co 2:4-6 WEB 4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown, yet a wisdom not of this world nor of the rulers of this world who are coming to nothing.


It's pretty much like the teenage boys who are seeking to get into a girl's panties.
The most charming, and suave, and persuasive boy will succeed, if she's not fully cognizant of her self, her gifts, and her importance to the value of love.

This is exactly why YHVH warned us about the importance of knowing God and his Word.

As is written,

Dan 11:32 WEB ....... but the people who know their God will be strong and take action.

And

Hos 4:6 WEB My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no priest to me. Because you have forgotten your God’s law, I will also forget your children.

As well as

Pro 29:18 WEB Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; but one who keeps the law is blessed.

There are plenty more where those came from. So I won't overwhelm you with facts.


The idea that there is a holy, all good, all loving moral being that ordered the slaughter of amelekite children and will eternally torture you for not believing in him is so random, unevidenced, and downright contradictory that its just as likely god expects you to be an atheist, or the actual deity will be more upset at your false worship than no worship.
Wow, so your problem here isn't the fact that the amalekites attacked the Israelis unprovoked, but that God commanded the Israelis to destroy the amalekites because you don't actually know what the bible says about it.

Pity. Yet another example of the importance of knowing God's Word.

Allow me to help you understand what happened.

Exo 17:8-16 WEB 8 Then Amalek came and fought with Israel in Rephidim. 9 Moses said to Joshua, “Choose men for us, and go out to fight with Amalek. Tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with God’s rod in my hand.” 10 So Joshua did as Moses had told him, and fought with Amalek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 When Moses held up his hand, Israel prevailed. When he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses’ hands were heavy; so they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side. His hands were steady until sunset. 13 Joshua defeated Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. 14 Yahweh said to Moses, “Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under the sky.” 15 Moses built an altar, and called its name “Yahweh our Banner”. 16 He said, “Yah has sworn: ‘Yahweh will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.’”

Deu 25:17-18 WEB 17 Remember what Amalek did to you by the way as you came out of Egypt, 18 how he met you by the way, and struck the rearmost of you, all who were feeble behind you, when you were faint and weary; and he didn’t fear God.

1Sa 15:2-3 WEB 2 Yahweh of Armies says, ‘I remember what Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way when he came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and don’t spare them; but kill both man and woman, infant and nursing baby, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

So, if you actually think that it's cool, and actually a good thing to launch an unprovoked attack on feeble, elderly, stragglers, etc..., then I'd say that you are a jerk to the nth degree.

I get the impression that you simply don't know what you're talking about and if you saw a similar situation today, where a large group of people migrating from one location to another were attacked without provocation, and the children, elderly, weak, and weary were slaughtered like animals, you'd have something to say about it.

Do yourself a favor and take the time to read the bible for the purpose of understanding and learning.
Not to win arguments, but actually understand it.

I don't believe in arguments. I've been at this internet forum thing dating back to 2000-02.
I've seen some impressive arguments, and then someone else who was more eloquent, and the previous argument was answered. Then yet another one, and each person who argued was increasingly eloquent.

At a certain point I came to realize that arguments aren't always the definitive proof of the veracity, or fallacy of certain things in life.

We who follow Jesus have been convinced by YHVH himself of the veracity of God, Jesus, the bible and eternal life.

So, you keep telling yourself that you're right and nobody else could ever convince you.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
That you would believe such a being to be good shows you have no heart
That you would expect others to follow a being shows you have no brain
And to cowtow to such a being for the faintest promise of an afterlife means you have no courage.

Did you already forget the idiotic OP you made last week about how Christian apologists don't REALLY believe what they say? So did Steve's supposed theological shell game con YOU? Who's the Scarecrow now?
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
I'm not a board cop, I don't care.
So why post about it?

If it was up to me you wouldn't be able to step foot anywhere but the atheist forum. Others wouldn't even allow you here at all. The "atheist position" is just subdermal irritation maybe. You do realize there is no "christian position", right?
It is not up to you. It is up to the people who run the site. They say no copyright infringement. And they say that for good reason.

You apparently have no problem with people who flout the rules, but do have a problem with people who report on them. You are, I guess, the sort of person who sees a crime being committed just turns a blind eye to it. How very noble. I am not like that; I would report it, and hope something is done to stop it.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
PIXIE: Do you feel solidarity with this guy:
What is your point, stiggy? Why are you so upset about me reporting wrong-doing?

Do you really believe "narcing" is wrong? Sure within gangs and criminals, "narcing" is considered wrong, because they are out to protect themselves and their criminal activities. Is that really the type of person you are?

Are you really the sort of person who just turns a blind eye to crimes committed in your neighbourhood? I mean, I do not live in the US, and perhaps that is the way over there. See a burglary in progress, or a woman being raped, just cross to the other side of the street and pretend you saw nothing. Heaven forbid you should be a "narc", right?
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
What is your point, stiggy? Why are you so upset about me reporting wrong-doing?

I'm not the slightest bit upset over your nerdy narcing. In fact, remember yesterday when I told you that I only have to worry about my own morals and not the morals of others? This is a perfect example. Instead of getting upset at your nerdy narcing, I have to guard against smiling sarcastically and condescendingly, while looking down on you as a geek extraordinaire.

Do you really believe "narcing" is wrong?

That would be a function of the motives of the narc. I cannot discern your motives. Unlike the Word of God I am not "sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; judging the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." (Heb 4:12)

Are you really the sort of person who just turns a blind eye to crimes committed in your neighbourhood?

Depends on the crime. Murder? Assault? Burglary? No. Jaywalking? Yes, which reminds me. You didn't answer my question.. Would you narc on a jaywalker?

I mean, I do not live in the US, and perhaps that is the way over there. See a burglary in progress, or a woman being raped, just cross to the other side of the street and pretend you saw nothing.

Sounds like you're describing an irresponsible coward. Let's keep to the subject: Your geeky narcing.
 

Furion

Well-known member
So report them. Oh, wait, they are not against the rules. Sounds like you have a problem with the CARM rules, not me. Take it up with the management.

Sometimes people do I would think.

And yes, every time you post disrespectful comments about the Lord you break the rules. Sorry that disappoints you.

You can consult the rules at your leisure.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
In what way is that relevant?
It's far more relevant than your cat.
It's entirely about where you choose to spend your eternity.

My neighbors cat and the skunks don't want to live with and love me. That's fine. I can still provide them a little help, see to their comfort somewhat (although not nearly as much as I can with my own cat) , with little if any requirement that they want to be with or around me. I don't have to set them on fire for rejecting me. So why is god treating people far, far , FAR worse than I'm treating a skunk in my back yard?
All this does is show that you're concocting a god out of your own image/beliefs/ideas.
Paul describes this in Romans 1-

[Rom 1:23 NKJV] 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

This is because you have decided you're more intelligent than you actually are. Thus, making yourself out to be a fool.

[Rom 1:21-22 NKJV] 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

God doesn't throw people into hell because they don't want to be with him.
There are two places for humans to spend their eternity.
Paradise, designed explicitly for them.
Hell is akin to the county jail, a holding cell, pending your day in court.
The Lake of Fire is akin to the federal penitentiary, following your conviction by the Court of God.

We tell you about Jesus so you can escape hell/lake of fire.
God explicitly gave his son, Jesus, for this purpose. We read in 2 Peter 3,

[2Pe 3:9 NKJV] 9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

He's done everything needed to free you from your sin, and the justice due your sin.



Either

1) God chooses to have the rules set up so that there are only two options life with him or a lake of hellfire (in which case he is far from loving, or even baseline human decent)

2) The rules are so entrenched in the universe that god can't alter them, which is far from omnipotent.
I.e., this is the god I believe is, and anything other than that, can't be the true and living God.
I.e., I know better!

Sad..... you're reminding me of another forum member who refuses to recognize that their ideas of God are false and change their mind. Thus, resulting in their playing Russian roulette, committing certain suicide.

IS that what you really want?


Without an answer here you seem to be preaching like jello, its not a conversation you just keep going with the prepared speech regardless of my points.
Well, sounds like you're the one setting the terms of the interaction.
That's not the terms of a friendly encounter. But that of a tyrant, and bully.

Hope that works out for you. I have no time for petulant and arrogant children.
Let me know when you grow up and realize you don't get to push people around on the internet.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Or so you were assured by an authority figure as a small child, and so you blindly believe it.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
The level to which you'll go to promote and believe the lies is astonishing.
Well, I'm thinking at this point is that it's you who were assured by an authority figure as a small child, and you blindly believed.
It would make perfect sense and explain why you refuse to believe me when I tell you I never experienced that as a small child.
I do not believe any of that.
Yep. You've made that clear, repeatedly. Which makes me wonder why you're wasting your life on this forum.
That - if we assume God exists - is his choice. What you are saying is that for those who reject God he would rather torture them for eternity in fire than take away the gift of immortality.
I didn't assume. I asked. So, if you need to assume, you further confirm that it's you who were taught the bible as a young child, by an authority figure, and you blindly believed.
It is interesting that Genesis specifically says God chose to withhold that very gift:

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

But no one ever send this is coherent, right?
Pity you didn't read the previous chapter.

[Gen 2:15-18 NKJV] 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." 18 And the LORD God said, "[It is] not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."

I do however note that you have a tendency to only post what suits your biases, so you can confirm your biases.

Well, this has long been your practice, and I have to say--- it doesn't help your cause. It just shows me that as an atheist, you are biased, filled with preconceived notions, and that you refuse to recognize your biases, shows me that you're also filled with hatred of the truth.



Sure, because God wants to torture forever all those who reject him. He has decided there are only two necessary so he can have his petty revenge.

Nope. He's giving you what you want. Nothing to do with him. Since you want nothing to do with him, why would he prepare a third place, which would also require his presence to sustain? You'd do the same thing humans are doing to earth today. Destroy it.

So, he's doing what he said he would.
He prepared a place for the devil and his angels. It's a place which has no vestiges, or reminders of God, on any level.
So far, unless you place your trust in Jesus, you're not giving him any reason to force you to live where you don't want to live.


Or non-existence.

Or here. This is neither heaven nor hell, so we know there is a third option given we live here.
I.e., you're so bent on your self-destruction, and the destruction of the human race, you want to stay on a planet where your fellow humans are promoting an ideology which will result in the self-annihilation of the entire planet.
Well, you're going to die sooner than later. YHVH said in at least 1007 years he's going to destroy this present heaven and earth, and then create a new one, wherein only righteousness dwells.

And that he tortures for eternity those who reject him to punish them. A pretty twisted love.
You're the one who is choosing to torture yourself, and your friends, and loved ones.
I'd say that the real twisting is your own.
And yet he tortures for eternity those who reject him to punish them.


He is all-powerful, so sustaining a third option is negligible effort for him.
Indeed he is all powerful.
He's giving you the choice. He could've turned you into an automaton, a preprogrammed robot, writing your code so you'd respond on command. He loved you enough to create you in his own likeness and image. So, I'm a little confused why you're so bothered by this.
You don't HAVE To spend your eternity in the lake of fire.
He sent his son Jesus to take the full brunt of the penalty due sin and give you eternal life.
You're the one who's refusing to engage him on his terms. You're the one who's choosing death over life.
Why? Does life frighten you so much that you're unwilling to engage him, and learn the truth?
Why would he want to, rather than have people suffer for eternity, well supposedly "God is Love" and "God is righteous, God is just, God is holy, God is true, God is peace, God is comfort, God is Joy, and numerous other attributes." and preventing suffering falls under a lot of that.
He gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe in him would not perish but have everlasting life! He did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that through Him, the world may be saved.....

So.... choose life! Stop choosing death and choose life!
Only two places are necessary. With Him, and without Him.
Without him is hell. Anyplace he'd create beyond those two places requires him to be present--- I.e., with him! So, he reduced it to one place with Him.
You just said "For God to provide a third option, it will require him to sustain it." Make up your mind Steve.
Yes, I did! I'm not the one having a problem here Pixie. You want God to provide you with a third choice. If he gives a third option, it'd require him to sustain it. His sustaining it requires his presence. So, he reduced it to one place where everyone who wants to be in paradise can come to Jesus.

I appreciate this belief of yours is incoherent, but seriously you are making this too easy for me.
Well then, I suppose you want to spend your eternity in your coherence of pain, agony, misery and anguish.
Sounds incoherent to me.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
There is none. And you admitted it.
Pity you don't actually know how to read and need to hide by clipping what doesn't fit your biases.
I recall explaining it quite extensively.
There is no argument that will prove a relationship exists. You either engage in the relationship or remain ignorant.


You are admitting that there is no argument.
Relationships aren't demonstrable via arguments. They're only demonstrable via engagement in the relationship.
But, since you apparently lack the comprehension of that concept, I'm thinking you simply think about this on the wrong terms, and manner.
I.e., you have false beliefs.
Without an argument there is no reason.
It's a relationship. The reason is the gospel of Jesus. It's not an argument, it's a message of reconciliation.

In my 62 years, I've never heard a single argument that reconciles relationships.
You either want the reconciliation, or you don't. If you don't, the only thing you're accomplishing is injuring yourself.


If you can't make your god more likely than an unknown deity that doesn't like me worshiping other gods your pascal's wager argument doesn't work at all.
I don't make my God like anyone. He's already defined himself. If you don't like it, I'd say that you have a problem with your ego.

Being an abusive and dismissive does nothing other than show that your statements for the vacuous, disingenuous pap that they are.
So, observed reality is abusive, and dismissive to you?
Seems like you have another problem.....

No, my problem is that there is no conceivable justification for an omnipotent, omnicient being having NO way to deal with an innocent male toddler besides having his followers dash his head against the rocks and no way to deal with his older sister except by raping them. That is not the work of the lor of creation and author of morality. It is the sick, twisted actions of a fiend from the darkest pits of hell.
I guess it's a good thing then that the writer of that particular document was Jewish, and wasn't looking for your permission to express his outrage at the violence that had been perpetrated against him, and his people.

That you would believe such a being to be good shows you have no heart
:ROFLMAO:
Well, you're more than welcome to come do something about it. You obviously believe you're morally superior and righteous than I am.


That you would expect others to follow a being shows you have no brain
Geez.... talking about abusive and dismissive. Apparently, this is a do as I say, not as I do thing?
And to cowtow to such a being for the faintest promise of an afterlife means you have no courage.
Well, tell me about it in another 150 years.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
The level to which you'll go to promote and believe the lies is astonishing.
Well, I'm thinking at this point is that it's you who were assured by an authority figure as a small child, and you blindly believed.
It would make perfect sense and explain why you refuse to believe me when I tell you I never experienced that as a small child.
So your parents never took you to church?

Okay, then your blind faith is utterly unexplainable. You clearly have no evidence to support your beliefs, so why do you think they must be true, Steve?

Pity you didn't read the previous chapter.

[Gen 2:15-18 NKJV] 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." 18 And the LORD God said, "[It is] not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."
I have read that previously. God lied. He said they would die the day they ate the fruit. they did not. So what is your point?

What do you understand the point of Gen 3:22? If they had eaten from the Tree of Life, what would they have got from it?

Nope. He's giving you what you want. Nothing to do with him.
No one wants to be tortured by God for eternity in fire. This is just something Christians like to tell themselves so they can rationalise away the simple fact that God tortures those who reject him to punish them. It says so in the Bible, Steve.

Mat 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Please do not lie and pretend this is because the victim wants it.

Since you want nothing to do with him, why would he prepare a third place, which would also require his presence to sustain? You'd do the same thing humans are doing to earth today. Destroy it.
Because he is supposedly good, merciful and loving. Of course, that is not really true is? Vindictive and sadistic sounds more appropriate.

So, he's doing what he said he would.
And not what he should.

He prepared a place for the devil and his angels. It's a place which has no vestiges, or reminders of God, on any level.
So far, unless you place your trust in Jesus, you're not giving him any reason to force you to live where you don't want to live.
It comes down to whether he really loves me, I guess.

I.e., you're so bent on your self-destruction, and the destruction of the human race, you want to stay on a planet where your fellow humans are promoting an ideology which will result in the self-annihilation of the entire planet.
Worth noting that the people who seem most hell bent on destroying the planet are climate-change denying Christians. See for example:



He's giving you the choice. He could've turned you into an automaton, a preprogrammed robot, writing your code so you'd respond on command. He loved you enough to create you in his own likeness and image. So, I'm a little confused why you're so bothered by this.
He just does not love me enough to stop himself punishing me forever.

You don't HAVE To spend your eternity in the lake of fire.
He sent his son Jesus to take the full brunt of the penalty due sin and give you eternal life.
Right. So the problem is God. He has decided he needs to punish five billion humans who are not Christians by torturing them for ever. As you point out, there is no need. We do not HAVE to spend your eternity in the lake of fire. It is what God chooses.
 
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