treeplanter
Well-known member
Explain how it is righteous and just to design and implement a plan wherein many must die for the offense of the one
Sin nature,
- Thread starter SteveB
- Start date
SteveB
Well-known member
Biological birth.
Greetings again SteveB,
Kind regards
Trevor
I decided to answer this last portion first. Previously you have used the expression "a living soul" of Genesis 2:7 to form the basis of your comment and the concept is repeated here "Adam's soul died" as if the concept is based on Genesis 2:7. My quotation of other modern translations of Genesis 2:7 and the citation of Genesis 2:7 in 1 Corinthians 15:45 proves that you are misusing or misunderstanding the expression "a living soul" in Genesis 2:7. The sentence of death in Genesis 3:19 was that Adam, the whole Adam, was to die and return to the dust. There is no mention of his body dying and his immortal soul going to either heaven or hell. And there is no mention of your unique view that his soul died. I suggest that you need to match Genesis 3:19 with Genesis 2:7, and my one suggestion for the difficulty (there are other possibilities) is that the expression "dying thou shalt die" contains the concept of a process, a change, that ultimately ends in death. Adam now became mortal, subject to death.
No, I am not a JW and do not endorse their 144,000 teaching. But I do not believe in immortal souls going to heaven or hell at death and I reject that our merciful and wise God torments these souls for eternity in the flames and consumes portions of their bodies in the worms of hell for ever.
Kind regards
Trevor
treeplanter
Well-known member
That's not an answer, Steve
All you have done is to reiterate what each of us already knows - that God decided that you and I, through the biological process of birth, be brought into this world with already corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin
God decided that "many must die for the offense of the one"
The question, again, is:
How is this righteous and just?
In another thread, I asked you why you consider it whining when I express opposition to that which I do not believe to be right, but you don't accuse God of whining when He expresses opposition to what He does not believe to be right?
Your response:
"Creator's prerogative"
Is that your answer to the question posed here, Steve?
It is righteous and just, in response to the actions of one man, to inflict sin and death upon every man BECAUSE the creator gets to do whatever He wants?
I agree that God is in charge and can do whatever He wants with us
And there's not a blessed thing any of us can do about it
Why, though, do you call it righteous and just to be held accountable for somebody else's wrongdoing?
Why do you believe that creatorship confers moral impunity?
SteveB
Well-known member
So, what happens when you die?
Do you simply cease to exist?
So Jesus is lying then?
Mar 9:43-50 WEB 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire, 44 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’ 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched— 46 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’ 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out. It is better for you to enter into God’s Kingdom with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire, 48 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’ 49 For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
Luk 16:19-31 WEB 19 “Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. 20 A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was taken to his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. 24 He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But here he is now comforted and you are in anguish. 26 Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that no one may cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’ 29 “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ 30 “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”
Because if Jesus is lying, I'm thinking that there's a serious problem.
I find it curious that you wouldn't punish people who have committed heinous violence against people.
Don't the Jewish people who were brutally murdered by Hitler deserve vindication?
We do after all read in Romans 12 that God will take vengeance.
How about the tens of millions of people slaughtered by Stalin?
The nearly 100 million people slaughtered by Mao?
Don't they deserve to be vindicated?
Hundreds of millions of people were slaughtered by ungodly people who were despots and tyrants.
If you actually think that God is being gracious to let their murderers, rapists, and destroyers of their lives go, I find myself wondering what god you believe in. Because it's clearly not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Greetings again SteveB,
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, apart from the resurrection of some of the wicked to face judgement and condemnation, the majority die and return to the dust. The faithful are resurrected and given everlasting life. The punishment for sin is death and return to the dust Genesis 3:19. I am familiar with the normal Baptist or Evangelical environment and teaching but reject this as it is not Bible based.
Kind regards
Trevor
SteveB
Well-known member
Actually it is.
It's not my problem that you don't actually want to understand the truth.
You've spent years rejecting the truth and concocting all manner of lies, and deception to justify your ignorance and hatred.
Still reads to me that you're whining about your humanity.
As my wife's grandmother use to say....
Tough titty said the kitty!
How many times would you like me to play the world's tiniest violin for you?
All your rants, whining and complaining about being human isn't going to change a single thing.
You were given a gift of inestimable value and worth. Throwing it back in his face only demonstrates that you are a child throwing temper tantrums.
That's not what it says.
It says...
For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Praise God he decided to handle it this way.
You're going to have to learn to read, and understand more clearly.
Everything YHVH does is righteous and just. Regardless of whether you like it or not.
Your contempt and outrage over it is to your own destruction.
Waaaaahhhhh
Here. Perhaps this will facilitate a greater understanding for you.
It's the way things are.
If you're really stupid enough to send yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish all because you don't like it, then you will get to live with the shame, humiliation and everlasting contempt for your beliefs.
Yep.
Then why would you be so stupid to not receive the gift of eternal life and flee the judgment due your sin?
We're not being held accountable for the sin of Adam.
We're being held accountable for our own respective sin.
I don't.
You do.
SteveB
Well-known member
Sad.
Well, since you actually want to return to the dust, and be nothing, I suppose you have a serious problem.
I further find your description conflicting with your previous comments. It appears that you have no idea what you believe.
First it's inconceivable that God would judge anyone, and they go to hell, then the wicked experience condemnation.
Please do yourself a favor and sit down and read the bible. Don't stop reading it. Continue to read it for the rest of your life here on earth.
And while you're at it, please.... talk to YHVH about what you read.
Keep talking to him about it.
The bible has 1189 chapters. If you read one chapter a day, it'll take you 3 years, and 3-1/2 months to get through it.
If you read 3-1/4 chapters day, it'll take you one year. If you read 4 chapters a day, it'll take you 290 days.
Several years ago I read about a young Muslim man who read 22 chapters a day. It took him just over 54 days to get through it. Seems like a lot to me, but I suppose that would depend on your motivation to learn the truth.
Your ideas presented here are conflicting and based on scattered ideas. The bible is not an incoherent text.
treeplanter
Well-known member
Sin that God decided, as a result of Adam's sin, that we are INCAPABLE of not committing
Think, Steve!
I do, huh?
Care to explain how you've come to the conclusion that I believe that creatorship confers moral impunity?
By the way, I can explain precisely how I've come to the conclusion that you believe that creatorship confers moral impunity
YOU TOLD ME SO!
"Creator's prerogative"
"Tough titty said the kitty!"
"Everything YHVH does is righteous and just. Regardless of whether you like it or not"
"Waaaaahhhhh"
"We're in his domain. So, we have to work on his terms"
One of us clearly believes that creatorship confers moral impunity and it ain't me!!
Greetings again SteveB,
Isaiah 26:13-14,19 (KJV): 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Kind regards
Trevor
No, I hope to share in the resurrection with Isaiah and the faithful if I die before the return of Jesus from heaven when he comes to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. The first category below suffer death and return to the dust. The second category awake in the resurrection from the grave and dust.
Isaiah 26:13-14,19 (KJV): 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Do you have a Bible Reading Chart and do you read the whole Bible regularly? Interesting, as the standard Bible Reading Chart for my fellowship takes us through the OT once, and the NT twice in a year. I am a bit slower and use the same Chart to read only one of the three portions each day, and cover this plan in 3 years. Perhaps if you read the Bible more thoroughly you may need to readjust your views instead of imposing your theology on these early parts of Genesis and getting it all wrong. Possibly you do this being convinced that your extensive comments are the Holy Spirit guiding your writing and thoughts.
Kind regards
Trevor
SteveB
Well-known member
I've been thinking, apparently ling before you were ever born.
Seems to me that you're the one who needs to think. Because you really haven't demonstrated that attribute yet.
I explained this already, in theOP post, #1, but in case you haven't actually read it...
Not sinning means that you are in complete harmony with YHVH.
The mistake is believing that you would be able to separate yourself from knowing God and choose to not sin.
The sin is choosing to disregard God and believe you can live without God.
So, claiming that you are forced to commit sun because you inherited Adam's spiritual death is erroneous.
The fact that you want nothing to do with God is proof that you are choosing to sin.
Your own words.
You keep repeating the phrase, so you obviously believe you are right and YHVH is acting with moral impunity.
If you didn't, you would stop using the phrase and choose a more accurate description.
Sucks to be so ready to commit suicide, doesn't it!
I'm not the one who keeps having a problem here.
The mistake is believing that you would be able to separate yourself from knowing God and choose to not sin.
The sin is choosing to disregard God and believe you can live without God.
So, claiming that you are forced to commit sun because you inherited Adam's spiritual death is erroneous.
The fact that you want nothing to do with God is proof that you are choosing to sin.
SteveB
Well-known member
Great passage.
Reads like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
Nope- no chart. I read from start to finish, and have been for the past 2 decades. Before that, my reading was less structured.
There are times when I read the old testament over and over again.
My present reading is based on a discussion I'd heard a few years ago.
I'm reading each book 6 times. I started it with Revelation and am on my 6th time for Deuteronomy. I'll go to Joshua next.
But... no chart.
Which fellowship is that?
So, reading it numerous times before isn't thorough enough for you?
Last year alone I read Genesis 6 times. I've lost track on how many times before then.
I'm going based on what Jesus said to his disciples in John 14:24, and 16:12-15. Are you saying that I shouldn't trust what Jesus said?
And as your clearly conflicted described views show, I'm thinking that you need a better understanding.
treeplanter
Well-known member
And each of us, yourself included, is destined to do so at least once
{thus warranting our eternal damnation}
And why are we destined to this?
BECAUSE YHVH DECIDED THAT ADAM'S SIN SHALL BE INHERITABLE!
The reason I want nothing to do with God is because He decided that Adam's sin shall be inheritable
It is neither righteous nor just to inflict sin and death upon the whole of humanity because the 1st man chose sin
Is English not your 1st language, Steve?
Impunity = exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action
I am NOT exempting God - to the contrary, I am holding God accountable for the injurious consequence of consciously, purposefully, and needlessly holding the entire human race accountable for the actions of Adam
YOU are the one who is exempting God and chalking it up to "creator's prerogative"
SteveB
Well-known member
And?
God has explicitly provided the solution to this problem.
Jesus came and paid the price for our sin.
Actually, he decided that the offspring of Adam would inherit his humanity.
Part of his humanity is the living soul that died because of sin.
Believing yet another lie.
He decided that the human race would inherit Adam's humanity.
As we read in Genesis 5,
Adam had a son after his own likeness and image.
Gen 5:1-4 WEB 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in God’s likeness. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them. On the day they were created, he named them Adam. 3 Adam lived one hundred thirty years, and became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 The days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he became the father of other sons and daughters.
Then don't sin.
If you don't want the consequences of your sin then don't do it!
It's that simple.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
exemption from punishment.
immunity from detrimental effects, as of an action
Curious...
I don't see where God is immune from the consequences of his creation.
He gave his only begotten son to die in our place! That looks like a pretty comprehensive penalty. He had to suffer the loss of his own son! He watched in silence, waiting for Jesus to say- enough!-- and silently Jesus bore the full brunt of the wrath of his Father on him, to save us from our sin. That which we purposely perpetrated against God, Jesus bore.
Why? Because he loved us enough to save us!
Love in God's heart, and the heart of Jesus bore the cruelest, most vicious and violent acts of his own creation, against his own son and his own heart, to save sinners from certain damnation.
So, God was not immune to the detrimental effects of his actions.
So, yet again you believe lies.
Seems to me that you need to see Jesus.
In all the gruesomeness of what we humans did to him. The very best movies that show the crucifixion of Jesus don't even touch what actually happened to Jesus.
In Isaiah 53, it's written that his appearance was so badly damaged that he didn't even look like a man.
Nope. I simply have a better picture of what Jesus went through to save us.
Medical views on the death by crucifixion of Jesus Christ
The death of Jesus Christ remains a pivotal moment in world history and a symbol of love, mercy, and courage across the globe. Yet for centuries, the manner of Jesus’ death has remained a subject of controversy in academic and medical circles. ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Read the full article.
A (more accurate) Medical Account of the Crucifixion | Douglas Jacoby
A Medical Account of the Crucifixion Simplified & Amended [1] Hanging, electrocution, knee-capping, gas chamber: these punishments are feared. They all happen today, and we shudder as we think of the…
www.douglasjacoby.com
Last edited:
treeplanter
Well-known member
And it is immoral to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon another
That He then provides a solution to the problem that He caused is IRRELEVANT!
It's not up to me whether I sin or not, Steve
God created me with a corrupt nature that INEVITABLY COMPELS SIN
God created me INCAPABLE OF LIVING A SINLESS LIFE
God created me DESTINED TO SIN AT LEAST ONCE
You've already agreed that this is the case and have dismissed my objections to it as "whining"
You've already agreed that this is the case and defended YHVH's actions with an assertion of "creator's prerogative"
Why are you now claiming that I can live a sinless life when YHVH, Himself, clearly states in scripture that "none are righteous, not even one"???
You're all over the board, Steve...
What I said, Steve, is that YOU grant God moral impunity due His status as creator
In other words, God is, according to you, morally excused when He consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon us simply because He created us
PLEASE, PLEASE TRY READING FOR COMPREHENSION!
Jesus:
"Let me in"
Me:
"Why?"
Jesus:
"So I can save you"
Me:
"Save me from what?"
Jesus:
"From what I'll do to you if you don't let me in"
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Was it up to OJ whether or not he stabbed Nicole to death? Or is it just you who gets to whinily use the excuse of "Waaah, God gave me a sin nature, I have no choice?"
Greetings again SteveB,
Kind regards
Trevor
That method seems beneficial. Did you notice a theme in the early chapters of Deuteronomy concerning dealing with giants?
Not sure what you are saying here.
I accept that Jesus is speaking firstly to his immediate Apostles concerning the Holy Spirit gifts, given especially to the Apostles. Also the believers also received these gifts, some with tongues others with healing and some other portions for the benefit of the whole assembly. I see no evidence that these gifts are available today, despite Pentecostal and some factions of the Baptists claims.
I see no evidence that you understand the various Scriptures that I have mentioned.
Kind regards
Trevor
treeplanter
Well-known member
Of course it was
OJ gets to decide which sins to commit
OJ does not, however, get to choose a life of sinlessness
None of us do
God has seen to that
What are you not understanding, stigs?
Look at it this way:
God has provided a menu of sins from which to choose
You are free to order whichever sins you desire from the menu
You are not free, though, to order righteousness - no righteousness on the menu
Nor are you free to refrain from ordering off the menu - everyone eats
And everyone eats off the same menu
Last edited:
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Correct. Who said he did? Whom are you arguing with here? Yourself? If so (speaking of choosing) I don't know whom to choose to root for.
WRONG! We can CHOOSE to. We just won't succeed.
WRONG! God won't stop us from always loving our neighbor as ourselves. WE will. Now why on earth would God stop us from doing the very thing He desires us to do? For a guy driving home such an idiotic point for so long, you sure haven't thought it out too well, have you?
DOCTOR: "Mr. Planter, your ticker is in bad shape. I advise you not to smoke, not to drink to excess, to stay away from coffee and don't eat foods high in fat."
TREEPLANTER: "WAAAAH. You just gave me a 'menu' of things to choose. WAAAAH."
treeplanter
Well-known member
Correct -God saw to that!
God consciously, purposefully, and needlessly chose for us to inherit corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin
Who on earth ever told you that the Christian God makes sense?
"An eye for an eye"
flip flop
"Offer no resistance to injury"
"I'm cool with it if people want to own other people as a piece of property"
flip flop
"I'm not cool with it when people own other people as pieces of property"
"Thou shalt not steal"
flip flop
"Go into town and steal me a horse"
"I and the Father are one"
flip flop
"My God, why have you forsaken me"
Etc
That He demands righteousness while ensuring that we are incapable of being righteous is par for the course, stigs!