Sin nature,

treeplanter

Well-known member
TP: " The Apostle Paul was a harelipped albino dwarf who had six toes on his left foot."

Stiggy: "Please provide a New Testament verse stating that."

TP: "I don't care that it may or may not be explicitly stated in the NT."
Another garbage analogy

I'm not making crap up and attributing it to Jesus

I am taking what God, The Father, said in the OT and attributing it to God, The Son

And that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do given that Jesus makes clear throughout the NT that He is 100% with God, The Father
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member

treeplanter

Well-known member
failure to quote the NT
What about your failure to recognize that the OT is every bit as much the word of God as is the NT?

Again, it is perfectly reasonable to attribute to God, The Son, the thoughts, words, and actions of God, The Father
Unless, of course, you'd like to argue that Jesus was at odds with YHVH??
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Greetings again SteveB,

I was interested if you noticed this and how thorough was your understanding of what you read. If you read Deuteronomy six times you may have noticed this theme, especially if your read a few of the early chapters in one sitting. I often read and gloss over some aspects of what is actually stated, but this theme was drawn to my attention by one of our speakers in a talk in 2006 and now I notice this more when I read Deuteronomy.
I've read it a lot more than six times. The 6 times is just my present reading.
They're giants in the land. They apparently scared the poop out of the Israeli's, and intimidated them enough to stop them dead in their tracks, and wind up spending 40 years wandering about the wilderness, because they did not believe God would do what he said he would.

No, I asked if you had your own reading plan and if you read the Bible consistently.
Yep.
The rest is still obscure. You were the one that started this on the basis that you thought I did not read the Bible and its message and I assume you were saying that if I did I would make the same conclusions as you did on Genesis.
Considering you appear stuck on a couple of ideas, and haven't mentioned the rest of the biblical narrative on the state of man before God.... then made comments that to you death is it, there is no hell, lake of fire, etc.... It's pretty clear that you've not read much of the bible. Or if you had, it was a rough run through, and no more than once or twice at best.

I understand this recall was to enable the Apostles to teach and Matthew and John to record their Gospel messages under inspiration. I do not believe that this is speaking to us, and I do not have a third voice in my head.
Well, that presents a problem.
1- I believe that because Jesus having said the recall is given to us by the Holy Spirit, is recorded in the gospel, that it's for the followers of Jesus today.
2- I've never heard a third voice. So, that you think it's an actual voice.... this tells me you don't understand it. And that you don't believe Jesus when he said it is for his followers, throughout church history, this presents me with more questions about your state before God.
3- while you are indeed entitled to believe whatever you want.... we who follow Jesus-- we're to believe Jesus. We're to follow Jesus. We're not to follow the followers of those who are following Jesus. We're to follow Jesus.

One of my ex-Baptist workmates now part time Pentecostal Pastor claimed that what he stated was as a result of his having the Holy Spirit.
Ok.
On one occasion when we were discussing OSAS, he paused took a deep breath, and then stated something ridiculous in support of OSAS. He also believed in the gift of healing and the prosperity doctrine.
I'm not a calvinist (C) or an arminianist (A).
Early on in my walk with Jesus, the church I was attending taught that they are neither a C, nor an A. We're both a C and an A.
The whole idea is that those who follow Jesus are secure in his hands, and the hands of the Father. John 10:27-29, 17:11, 15, 2 Timothy 1:12.
By the same token, we must persevere! If we quit, then the question arises--- were we in fact following Jesus.
Hebrews 3:6, Colossians 1:23.


I read 2 Timothy 3 as teaching the need to listen to the inspired Word of God, not a voice within.
Here's a question for you....
Where did you ever come up with the idea that it's a "voice within"?
As I'd said--- I have never heard a voice giving me the scriptures.
For me, it's more like a memory. As Jesus said--- He shall bring to your remembrance everything I've taught you.

[Jhn 14:26 NKJV] 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

And for me, it's always been a memory of things I've read. NEVER a voice.

And the 2 Tim 3 passage is about denying the power of God at work in the life of a believer.
[2Ti 3:5 NKJV] 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Biblical Christianity is based on God's Power. Without the power of God, none of it is possible. It's just another empty religious ideology, in a long line of ideologies.



The Word of God and the Gospel is powerful and does not need the Holy Spirit to interpret this to us.
Actually--- it does need the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret it to, and for us!
Otherwise, we run off on a whole slew of various tangents, and rabbit trails which are based on man's ideas, and preconceptions.
Where do you think the 1400-2400 different denominations in the church of Jesus came from? It's not from the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 3:5-8 is really important here, as are the following passages out of Proverbs

[Pro 11:14 NKJV] 14 Where [there is] no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors [there is] safety.
[Pro 15:22 NKJV] 22 Without counsel, plans go awry, But in the multitude of counselors they are established.
[Pro 24:6 NKJV] 6 For by wise counsel you will wage your own war, And in a multitude of counselors [there is] safety.


Consider the Parable of the Sower and Romans 1:16-17, 10:17. My daughter moved to a region for a while, and attended a Baptist Church for a while. She became uncomfortable when an obsessive woman thought that she had the Holy Spirit and kept on harassing her with "I have a message for you" and then saying unusual things.
Ok. Our experiences are not to be used to interpret scripture! That said, I hope your daughter used Paul's edict to the Thessalonians as a basis to test that woman's comments.

[1Th 5:19-22 NKJV] 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

Where I come from, we're strongly encouraged to seek God in reading, and prayer before we follow the "word of wisdom/knowledge" from others. Especially if we're not familiar with those who speak them.
God is quite capable of ensuring we get a message from him, and will typically use people who are closest to us, and are godly.

[Phl 3:15 NKJV] 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.



The main area of your posts was on Genesis on sin nature and death of the soul and you have now avoided this or given poor exposition by imposing your wrong theology or ideas on Genesis.
Well, you have been making it clear that you had never studied the topics I've been discussing.
I'm still working through the bible, and will be for the rest of my time on earth.
It's clear that Adam's "Living" soul died, as was evidenced by the changes that took place in him immediately following his eating the fruit, and God's appearance to take their regular "cool of the day" walk. The change that took place as evidenced by Abel's death, Cain's rebellion, and changing the practice of worship, and subsequent murder of Abel.
We read in numerous places throughout the bible, from Genesis to Revelation the consequence of Adam's sin played out on humanity, and the reason why Jesus came.
It was Jesus' comment to Nicodemus about the necessity of the new birth that got me wondering what the new birth was, and why it was so important. I've since been studying/reading to learn what the dynamics are, so I can better understand it, and be better equipped to describe/discuss it.
So far, the most concise description for the new birth I've ever found in the bible is Ezekiel 36:25-27.
The curious thing about this Ezekiel passage is that it's alluded to in Ezek 11, 18, and then most completely in 36.
We read in Deuteronomy 10:16, and 30:6 that it's important to have the "foreskin of our heart" circumcised, so we'll keep God's Commandments.
We then read in Jeremiah 31:31-34 (referenced later in Hebrews) that God will write his laws on our hearts and minds.

Paul's letters delve into it deeper, but not with a direct connection back to the Ezekiel passage.


Yes, these are important. I would also emphasise the necessity to affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and to be baptised in water in identification with the death and resurrection of Christ Acts 8:5-6,12 and then to live the crucified/resurrected life Galatians 2:20,Romans 6:1-8.
I find question in the idea of affectionately "believing" anything. Belief is a commitment of the will. The heart, soul, and mind. While our emotions are indeed tied to our humanity, and therefore our faith, I've found, and have learned throughout the past 45 years that placing our trust in our emotions is a deadly thing. They cannot be trusted. Or, they are to be enjoyed, but not depended on.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It is interesting that Baptists and other groups who believe that they have the Holy Spirit do not see the necessity of water baptism.
Ok. I'm not among those.
I was baptized not long after I started walking with him.
Then several months later, I ran across a group who said that I had to be baptized in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38), and that the Matthew 28:18-20 method of baptism wasn't good enough. So I later did that baptism. Not because I actually thought it was necessary, but, as Paul said to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 9, I wanted to be able to move freely in a variety of groups I'd someday serve, and minister to, so I followed the advice of "becoming all things to all people."
Ironically, it hasn't been the issue in my life that those people tried making it out to be.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
What about your failure to recognize that the OT is every bit as much the word of God as is the NT?

Prove I don't. I love the OT just as much as the NT. I'm a big fan of typology. David is my hero. But I don't confess my sins over a goat.

Again, it is perfectly reasonable to attribute to God, The Son, the thoughts, words, and actions of God, The Father

Absolutely. As a newborn Christian you sometimes get it right, although you have a lot of growing to do.

Unless, of course, you'd like to argue that Jesus was at odds with YHVH??

What makes you think I would argue that our mutual Lord is at odds with Himself? Explain that rather asinine comment.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Prove I don't. I love the OT just as much as the NT.
Then why do you deny what it says in the OT?
{And, yes, a demand that NT verse be provided before you accept the Word of God IS a denial of OT verse!}

The OT says that we are "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin" - i.e. born with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin

It'd be one thing if YHVH/Jesus, in the NT, went on to state categorically that we are NOT "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin", but no such passage exists, stiggy...


Bottom line is that YHVH/Jesus stated that we are born with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin and you deny His word because it's in the 1st book, but not the 2nd

Lame
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Then why do you deny what it says in the OT?
{And, yes, a demand that NT verse be provided before you accept the Word of God IS a denial of OT verse!}

The OT says that we are "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin" - i.e. born with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin

It'd be one thing if YHVH/Jesus, in the NT, went on to state categorically that we are NOT "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin", but no such passage exists, stiggy...


Bottom line is that YHVH/Jesus stated that we are born with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin and you deny His word because it's in the 1st book, but not the 2nd

Lame
You may indeed view it as lame, but it's been explained to you in great detail.

Jesus, in talking to his hearers about parents who give gifts, and God who gives greater gifts, Jesus said--- if you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts......

And there are other references to humans being evil.

[Mat 7:11 NKJV] 11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
[Mat 12:34 NKJV] 34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
[Luk 11:13 NKJV] 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

all three passages are Jesus talking.

Me, you, and everyone else is evil.
We are "shapen in iniquity", and conceived in sin.

It's the consequence of Adam's sin, leaving us with the propensity towards sin.

Your ongoing rants about it are not going to change that simple fact about our/your humanity.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
You may indeed view it as lame, but it's been explained to you in great detail.

Jesus, in talking to his hearers about parents who give gifts, and God who gives greater gifts, Jesus said--- if you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts......

And there are other references to humans being evil.

[Mat 7:11 NKJV] 11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
[Mat 12:34 NKJV] 34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
[Luk 11:13 NKJV] 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

all three passages are Jesus talking.

Me, you, and everyone else is evil.
We are "shapen in iniquity", and conceived in sin.

It's the consequence of Adam's sin, leaving us with the propensity towards sin.

Your ongoing rants about it are not going to change that simple fact about our/your humanity.
Thanks, Steve, for proving what I have been saying for years - that it is YOU
{despite the constant accusations levelled against others}
who doesn't read for comprehension!

Had you bothered to read the exchange between myself and stiggy
{and been capable of understanding it}
then you would know that it is MY position that we are "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin"

Stiggy's position is that we are NOT "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin" because it's not explicitly stated in the NT


Furthermore, were you capable of reading for comprehension then you would know that what I referred to as "lame" is not God's word, per se, but rather stiggy's denial of God's word because it is in the OT, but not the NT
 
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stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Then why do you deny what it says in the OT?

Why do you deny that 7 is a number?

{And, yes, a demand that NT verse be provided before you accept the Word of God IS a denial of OT verse!}

AMEN! The OT also reveals the Word of God Who is Jesus. You're kind of like Caiaphas in John 11:50. You sometimes unwittingly speak the literal truth.

The OT says that we are "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin" - i.e. born with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin

A psalmist said that. A psalmist also said that he would like to see babies dashed against rocks. The Preacher in Ecclesiastes says that all is vanity. I have educated you many times about the foolishness of deriving Christian doctrine from the OT. It bounces right off of you. The OT reveals God's OLD Covenant. If there were no difference between the OT and NT, we'd just call it the T.

It'd be one thing if YHVH/Jesus, in the NT, went on to state categorically that we are NOT "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin", but no such passage exists,

EXACTLY! Jesus doesn't address the issue explicitly. Nor does Paul. Also neither tell us EXPLICITLY that all is NOT vanity. We realize that all is not vanity by reading the NT.

Bottom line is that YHVH/Jesus stated that we are born with corrupt natures

Where? Are you seriously going to contend that the psalmists are Jehovah Himself?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Thanks, Steve, for proving what I have been saying for years - that it is YOU
{despite the constant accusations levelled against others}
who doesn't read for comprehension!

Had you bothered to read the exchange between myself and stiggy
{and been capable of understanding it}
then you would know that it is MY position that we are "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin"

Stiggy's position is that we are NOT "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin" because it's not explicitly stated in the NT


Furthermore, were you capable of reading for comprehension then you would know that what I referred to as "lame" is stiggy's denial of God's word because it is in the OT, but not the NT
You need to grow up and get over yourself.

Sending yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish is not going to convince God that you should get a pass.
And contrary to your opinions of yourself, you are not as virtuous or as strong as you believe yourself to be.
Within seconds of arriving in hell, you'll buckle and whine like a baby, and then scream in absolute agony.

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ!
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Stiggy's position is that we are NOT "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin"

I can't know for sure. It's possible I was. I wasn't conscious when I was conceived. But I doubt my father was thinking of some other woman when I was conceived. He loved my mother and I believe was quite faithful even in his imagination, especially since I was conceived not long after they were married, not giving him much time to have his imagination roam elsewhere as is often the case. So no, I'm not denying that SOME may be conceived in sin.
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again SteveB,
I've read it a lot more than six times. The 6 times is just my present reading.
They're giants in the land. They apparently scared the poop out of the Israeli's, and intimidated them enough to stop them dead in their tracks, and wind up spending 40 years wandering about the wilderness, because they did not believe God would do what he said he would.
You stated that you read Deuteronomy 6 times recently and I was asking how much you recall about the giants mentioned in the early chapters of Deuteronomy. You mention what happened some 38 years before, but no mention of what Moses now says to the new generation, and what lessons and encouragement that they can absorb from his words so that they would not fail by comparison to the previous generation. Maybe you need to read Deuteronomy again and turn on your "Spirit" guidance.
It's pretty clear that you've not read much of the bible. Or if you had, it was a rough run through, and no more than once or twice at best.
I consistently read the OT once and the NT twice every three years, one or more chapters each day. I am on the NT portion of my Bible Reading Companion this year. I will not claim that I understand or absorb all that I read. I also study different chapters, themes on a personal basis, and listen to many expositions by those more qualified than me.
It's clear that Adam's "Living" soul died,
You are still using this wrong concept '"Living"soul died', incorrectly based in part on the language of Genesis 2:7. You need to turn on your "Spirit" guidance again, or possibly use a few reference books.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
You need to grow up and get over yourself.
You need to grow up and learn how to admit when you're wrong

In your absolute tyrannical and despotic zeal to tell me that I'm wrong, you completely and entirely misunderstood the exchange between stiggy and myself

Be a man and, just this once, say:
"I was wrong, treeplanter"

I won't hold my breath, though
You've never exhibited any ability to humble yourself

Nope, you just double-down with the threats
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
EXACTLY!!
Your words:
"David is my hero"

YHVH's words, spoken through David:
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me"

YHVH's words - words that apply not only to David, but to all men!

Words reinforced in the NT:
"None is righteous, no, not one"

Jesus' words, spoken through Paul

Jesus' words - words that apply to all men!


You don't get to pretend that God didn't do what He most certainly did do just because it's in one book of the bible, but not the other
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Your words:
"David is my hero"

YHVH's words, spoken through David:
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me"

Yep, those are indeed the words of my hero. Looks like he knows something about his parents that you and I don't know. Obviously YOU think YOU were conceived in iniquity just like David thought. Were you somehow able to read the minds of your Mom and Dad at the moment of your conception? Nice trick. How did you manage that? Or perhaps your parents weren't married at the time and you are self righteously condemning them as sinners for effectively making you a you-know-what.

YHVH's words-
Words reinforced in the NT:
"None is righteous, no, not one

AMEN! We are all sinners.

Jesus' words, spoken through Paul

WRONG! Paul's words as inspired by Jesus.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Yep, those are indeed the words of my hero. Looks like he knows something about his parents that you and I don't know. Obviously YOU think YOU were conceived in iniquity just like David thought. Were you somehow able to read the minds of your Mom and Dad at the moment of your conception? Nice trick. How did you manage that? Or perhaps your parents weren't married at the time and you are self righteously condemning them as sinners for effectively making you a you-know-what.
Looks like it's time to educate stiggy...

"Shapen in iniquity"
and
"Conceived in sin"
doesn't mean that one's parents were actively engaged in sin at the moment one was being conceived

What it means is that each and every one of us are condemned from birth
What it means is that each and every one of us came into this world already, through no fault of our own, at enmity with God

And this, of course, is by the conscious, purposeful, and needless choice of God

WRONG! Paul's words as inspired by Jesus.
Ah, got it!

The bible isn't the Word of God - it's just "words that were inspired by God"!


Why would you put any stock into words that were simply inspired rather than spoken by God?

Some moron might well be inspired, upon Georgia Tech winning a national football championship, to head out for some celebratory looting - does that make it right?
 
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