Sin that leads to death

Manfred

Well-known member
I see' so Jesus lied and was only joking in his commandment that to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in haven is perfect in Matt 5:48 ?
  • Matthew 22:37, “And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’”
  • Matthew 22:39, “‘The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’”
And just with his tone and presumptions about another Gary makes himself guilty, of violating the commandment of Jesus.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
  • Matthew 22:37, “And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’”
  • Matthew 22:39, “‘The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’”
And just with his tone and presumptions about another Gary makes himself guilty, of violating the commandment of Jesus.
Oh heck no. It is about having the love of God as your own mind, your own heart and when you do receieve Him, His mind, Loving God doesnt become an effort as you are trying to love God, but is become the natural and not an effort at all, for my God is Love and I am the temple of Him. He in me and I in Him are one, see John 17.

It wasnt an effort for Jesus to love God either it is or own disposition as His is to do so. We have His same nature of Love.

You only say you love God but flat out reject to have His love as your own mind is all. that is why you mock Him in His was for having the Love of God.

You really do not know what it is to have the Love of God yourself do you?
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Your sin nature still lurks about.
That is why Paul exhorts us to live in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

I will never say that we have a license to sin. That is just nonsense.
The reality however is that Christians do sin, even though they do NOT WANT TOO

13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal 5 ESV)

You still teach that your futures sins are forgiven. You seem to also believe in OSAS. I didn't think you would recognize they both lead to a license to sin, but what you teach can still be interpreted by some to mean just that. You post scriptures against what you teach, in fact they back up what I teach. I see now that your statement earlier about my posts making you "think" was just a ruse. Your mind hasn't become open. You are still in the tunnel vision of your denominational beliefs, not a Berean.
 

civic

Well-known member
Exactly. I agree. They are fake, and there are many willfully sinning "Christians" that aren't saved either. You may teach them that their future sins are covered, but they're not.



I don't know what that has to do with anything. I'm pointing out that that verse proves that OSAS is a myth. They might have had a lot of fruit at first, but maybe got unequally yoked with stronger personalities and drifted away. Love is blind. We need to stay on the path towards salvation. Salvation is the prize at the end of the road, not the beginning of the race. We must endure to the end.
Your kenosis false teaching about Christ has an effect on every biblical doctrine which is evident by this post concerning Jesus atonement for sin being only past sins. That is another example of your false teaching from believing in a false christ who was not fully God with all the same attributes as the Father and Holy Spirit. You kenneth copeland false teaching is shining through clady. You just cannot escape the trap that all charismantics find themselves in with the devil deceiving you hook, line and sinker. You make a mockery out of the Atonement/Redemption, Salvation, Eternal Life etc...............

hope this helps !!!
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Oh heck no. It is about having the love of God as your own mind,
And yet you have made unfair judgement. You do it all the time. Your posts are here for all to see.

So much for your sinless perfection!
Matthew 22:39, “‘The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’”
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You still teach that your futures sins are forgiven. You seem to also believe in OSAS. I didn't think you would recognize they both lead to a license to sin, but what you teach can still be interpreted by some to mean just that. You post scriptures against what you teach, in fact they back up what I teach. I see now that your statement earlier about my posts making you "think" was just a ruse. Your mind hasn't become open. You are still in the tunnel vision of your denominational beliefs, not a Berean.
Of course all future sin of believers are forgiven.
Jesus is still our advocate and mediator.

Why would you try and teach that Jesus stops mediating for those He saves? Is it because you still have he nasty habit of believing salvation is up to you and not Jesus?

Reading this reply shows me how much you think about yourself....
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Of course all future sin of believers are forgiven.
Jesus is still our advocate and mediator.

Why would you try and teach that Jesus stops mediating for those He saves? Is it because you still have he nasty habit of believing salvation is up to you and not Jesus?

Reading this reply shows me how much you think about yourself....
The problem is you believe Jesus is your Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness of the devil. Nope. The Father demands no less than perfection, so the minor trespasses we commit even while walking in the Spirit are still sins, and it is those that Jesus automatically cleanses as our Advocate, as long as we forgive others their trespasses against us. Matthew 6:14-15. We are held accountable to keep His Word and are commanded to forgive and keep in fellowship with other believers. 1 John 1:7 That is all part of our loving one another.

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Manfred

Well-known member
The problem is you believe Jesus is your Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness of the devil. Nope. The Father demands no less than perfection, so the minor trespasses we commit even while walking in the Spirit are still sins, and it is those that Jesus automatically cleanses as our Advocate, as long as we forgive others their trespasses against us. Matthew 6:14-15. We are held accountable to keep His Word and are commanded to forgive and keep in fellowship with other believers. 1 John 1:7 That is all part of our loving one another.

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I think Jesus is my advocate and mediator always.

You seem to think you are able to save people's souls from death....
It is ok though, I understand that you heve ZERO trust in Christ as the author and perfector of your faith. Your trust lies firmly in yourself... Good luck with that.
 
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I think Jesus is my advocate and mediator always.

You seem to think you are able to save people's souls from death....
It is ok though, I understand that you heve ZERO trust in Christ as the author and perfector of your faith. Your trust lies firmly in yourself... Good luck with that.

Are you sure your faith will protect you from criminals? If someone offends your loved ones, are you really going to be satisfied that somewhere after death, an imaginary punishment awaits him? Is your faith enough to forgive violence against your relatives, forgive broken lives?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Are you sure your faith will protect you from criminals? If someone offends your loved ones, are you really going to be satisfied that somewhere after death, an imaginary punishment awaits him? Is your faith enough to forgive violence against your relatives, forgive broken lives?
Will my faith protect me from criminals?
No, criminals will do whatever they want despite my faith.

I am not after some sort of satisfaction regarding punishment of those who offend my love ones.
There will be judgement based not on my whims and feelings and hurts.

I have forgiven violence against my relatives, I have caused broken lives and I am forgiven. Not because I deserve it, but because of grace.
This life is but a sigh, a moment in all of eternity.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
And yet you have made unfair judgement. You do it all the time. Your posts are here for all to see.

So much for your sinless perfection!
Matthew 22:39, “‘The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’”
Unfair judgment is always the result of a mind who has no intent in obeying the Father to be as He is. Jesus was accused of unfair judgment of the same and look how he was treated by the same.

Loving thy neighbor is not an effort just as loving God is not an effort. Those laws are fulfilled in you when you actually have the Love of God as your own disposition and you do live them as yourself. But then for you that is an unfair judgment isnt it? Seems conviction for your own iniquities to have from God His same love as your own disposition is the unfair judgment.

If I didnt love you then I would only be wasting my time repeating to you that what Jesus said you should be in the Father as he was in Him. But because there is a better way I have to obey and repeat that what jesus said you should be in the Father as He was in the Father.

Love God, Love man, becomes the natural if you actually have received form God His same mind, born again, born of God, instead of an effort to try and love your neighbor and you actually have the Love of God to walk as He walks in it.

May I ask why that is an unfair judgment for you. Could it be His way to be as He is doesnt apply to your religious belief? Just asking!

And your mockery of His sinless perfection as He commands of you, it comes clear to see that you do not love this neighbor as yourself. In fact I can feel the hatred coming out from you toward me for having from God myself that what Jesus commanded of us. but that is typical for religious minds who have a problem with Gods perfections that they cant be as He commands of you.
 

civic

Well-known member
That would actually be you the accuser of the brethren . The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

Rev 12:10
And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.
 
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Slyzr

Well-known member
In another thread @CharismaticLady made the distinction between sin that leads to death as it being sin that breaks the 10 commandments and sin that does not break the 10 Commandments, but that trespasses against God.

She alludes to the Lords prayer where we are taught to pray "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Forgiveness of our trespass is thus dependent on our forgiving others their trespass against us.

Further, she states that we are able not to sin:
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Looking at the passages in context:
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

If anyone sees his brother (Brother in Christ?) committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask (on behalf of this brother) and God will give him life- those brothers who commit sins that do not lead to death..

A couple of observations:
I do not think "brother" here refers to those already saved, or brothers in Christ, as the prayer will lead to God giving that "brother" life.
God having to give someone life, denotes that "Life" was not given before. (John equates Life, with Jesus- 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—)

If someone want's to argue loss of salvation and restoration to salvation, then they would have to negate:
"It is impossible.... 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

There is sin that leads to death; and John says one should not pray for that.

What is the unforgivable sin? Does it lead to death, or do you remain dead in your sin... Can the sin that leads to death be anything but the unforgivable sin and can those who are born again believers commit the unforgivable sin, or is the unforgivable sin rejection of the Holy Spirit by denying Him.

Not all sin prevents you from being reconciled to God, and pray for those who commit these sins, and God will restore them. There is a sin that prevents one from being reconciled to God.
Those that are reconciled to God, do not keep on sinning, because Christ protects them and the evil one does not touch the reconciled child of God.

Therefore, looking at the context, I do not agree with @CharismaticLady that breaking the "Royal Law" as a born again believer is the sin that leads to death.
Only blasphemy of the Holy Spirit leads to death, and the passage in 1 John should be read with a hemaneutic, taking all of scripture in mind.

All born again believers do trespass and need to repent, and forgive and we should strive to live our lives without sinning. Living in the Spirit at all times, thereby not satisfying the lusts of the flesh. This is not an impossibility, as scripture is clear that we are no longer slaves to sin, so we can overcome every sin and we should endeavor to live in that victory.

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

The righteousness of Christ covers all sin for those who have been made righteous by faith in the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and by confessing that He was raised from the dead.

The HS b-thingy is not it.

According to the writer of Hebrews.

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Basically it is some one saying thanks but no thanks.
 
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Charlie Spine

New Member
I see' so Jesus lied and was only joking in his commandment that to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in haven is perfect in Matt 5:48 ?

And John liked in 1 John 3:9? ANd when you see Him as H eis ye shall belike Him?

Isnt the real issue is you haven't seen Him? FO if you were like Him you would know what His perfection is.

If Jesus ever gave you a command he could not enable you to fulfill then he would be a liar and evidently to you he is a liar.

Fact is you do not follow the way of Jesus Christ to have His same mind, same SPirit, walk as He walks in His same light and all is a farce for you.

Right? for your very comment confirms in your rebellion against him in his ways for perfection in the Father who is God. You defend the atheists outlook about him.

If you are going to claim to be of Christ you should at least act like it instead of commenting about a subject you know noting of making yourself look more foolish.
No Jesus did not lie. Good grief! How could God instruct us to do anything less than to be perfect? For Him to suggest we be the best we can be is to lower His standard of perfection. You missed the obvious impossibility of our being perfect. That is the entire reason we must look to and depend on the perfect performance of Jesus Christ on our behalf!
As for being like Him when we see Him, you won't find that at 1 John 3: 9. I believe you meant 1John 3: 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
This will indeed be the case as we meet our Lord at the resurrection, exactly as it states. How you missed that is a mystery to me, Look at it carefully: "...it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him..."
As for 1 John 3:9 You appear to have ignored the context of the verse: 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Please note The lifestyle of one who makes a practice of sin as described in verse 9 and or one who abides in such a lifestyle practice is the only real indicator for us to understand that such a person is likely not born of God. Just as obvious are those is verse 10: "...obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
You accused me with the charge: "You defend the atheists outlook..." while in fact, it would be the atheist who would be more prone to say their performance is good enough, having no view of their true fallen nature and need for Christ as their advocate.
For you to suggest that we can live our lives untouched by sin on this side of Heaven is to diminish the very Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, on which we must continually depend in every step in our walk of faith.

Did you really examine the article content with your Bible open? Did you not notice:

The Bible is not saying that we don’t sin. Those verses in 1 John are talking about abiding in sin. That is not what Christians do. In fact, 1 John earlier in the same epistle states the following.

  • 1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
  • 1 John 2:1, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”
Notice that John the apostle includes himself in the issue of sinning. Are the sinless perfectionist people more holy than John the apostle? I think not.

I would encourage you to take advantage of what Jesus is continuing to do every day, and every day forward till we Christians meet Him in the resurrection: "...we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

As for your suggestion that I may be "...making [myself] look... foolish." Well, the actions of Jesus are clearly described as an ongoing and continuing work of ADVOCACY in the verses above. It would be truly "foolish" if I were to count on my performance. Whereas you seem to be convinced, sadly, that you can be "perfect" on this side of Heaven and fail to look to Jesus as your necessary "...Advocate with the Father..."
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
No Jesus did not lie. Good grief! How could God instruct us to do anything less than to be perfect? For Him to suggest we be the best we can be is to lower His standard of perfection. You missed the obvious impossibility of our being perfect. That is the entire reason we must look to and depend on the perfect performance of Jesus Christ on our behalf!
As for being like Him when we see Him, you won't find that at 1 John 3: 9. I believe you meant 1John 3: 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
This will indeed be the case as we meet our Lord at the resurrection, exactly as it states. How you missed that is a mystery to me, Look at it carefully: "...it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him..."
As for 1 John 3:9 You appear to have ignored the context of the verse: 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Please note The lifestyle of one who makes a practice of sin as described in verse 9 and or one who abides in such a lifestyle practice is the only real indicator for us to understand that such a person is likely not born of God. Just as obvious are those is verse 10: "...obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
You accused me with the charge: "You defend the atheists outlook..." while in fact, it would be the atheist who would be more prone to say their performance is good enough, having no view of their true fallen nature and need for Christ as their advocate.
For you to suggest that we can live our lives untouched by sin on this side of Heaven is to diminish the very Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, on which we must continually depend in every step in our walk of faith.

Did you really examine the article content with your Bible open? Did you not notice:

The Bible is not saying that we don’t sin. Those verses in 1 John are talking about abiding in sin. That is not what Christians do. In fact, 1 John earlier in the same epistle states the following.

  • 1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
  • 1 John 2:1, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”
Notice that John the apostle includes himself in the issue of sinning. Are the sinless perfectionist people more holy than John the apostle? I think not.

I would encourage you to take advantage of what Jesus is continuing to do every day, and every day forward till we Christians meet Him in the resurrection: "...we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

As for your suggestion that I may be "...making [myself] look... foolish." Well, the actions of Jesus are clearly described as an ongoing and continuing work of ADVOCACY in the verses above. It would be truly "foolish" if I were to count on my performance. Whereas you seem to be convinced, sadly, that you can be "perfect" on this side of Heaven and fail to look to Jesus as your necessary "...Advocate with the Father..."

Gary found the father ..... you do not matter.

Wait for it ....... he calls it love.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
You missed the obvious impossibility of our being perfect. That is the entire reason we must look to and depend on the perfect performance of Jesus Christ on our behalf!
As for being like Him when we see Him, you won't find that at 1 John 3: 9. I believe you meant 1John 3: 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

What do you mean by "the obvious IMPOSSIBILITY of our being perfect"? Jesus told us to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Was Jesus unreasonable? Did He give a command knowing it would lead to failure? Think again.
 

civic

Well-known member
What do you mean by "the obvious IMPOSSIBILITY of our being perfect"? Jesus told us to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Was Jesus unreasonable? Did He give a command knowing it would lead to failure? Think again.
Of course as no one could ever obey the 10 commandments. Its the whole reason Christ came in the first place because no one could obey them. Read Galatians they were our TUDOR to lead us to Christ. The Law condemns not justifies one before God. You really are confused about the OT and the NT.

hope this helps !!!
 
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