Since becoming a Christian

TomFL

Well-known member
Have you ever sinned ?

Was God's decree the cause of your sin or were you

Have you ever had an sinful thought or desire ?

Was God decree the cause of your sinful thought or desire or were you ?

Have you ever been tempted with sin ?

Was God's decree the reason for your temptation ?

or was there another source

If you say God

You contradict scripture

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

If you affirm your own culpability and exonerate God you contradict creeds which claim God has decreed everything that happens
and attribute to God's decree ultimate sufficient cause for all things

reflected in statements similar to the one below by Dr. James N. Anderson

“For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].
 

Sketo

Well-known member
If God allowed the “source”, like a sinful nature, then God decreed that that source would be the source! You are guilty not him!

If God decreed that the ends be different than your evil desire then he would use a different source!

God can allow your fallen sin nature to be the source of your evil action... or God could decree that that evil action not occur and change the source to accomplish a end different than your evil desire!

Either outcome is still by Gods decree!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If God allowed the “source”, like a sinful nature, then God decreed that that source would be the source! You are guilty not him!

If God decreed that the ends be different than your evil desire then he would use a different source!

God can allow your fallen sin nature to be the source of your evil action... or God could decree that that evil action not occur and change the source to accomplish a end different than your evil desire!

Either outcome is still by Gods decree!
Forget allowed. Permission is language of the non Calvinist

Determined is the language of Calvinism

God decrees were made before the foundation of the earth without consideration of what could happen upon any such circumstances

Calvin states permision is a vain refuge

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)

Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].

Calvinism and the problem of evil pg 204.205
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Ok... God determined that mans sin nature be the source of all mans evil actions!

That better???
And who determined man would have a sin nature ?

You cannot escape it. The theistic determinism of Calvinism has God as the ultimate source of all evil

Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].

Calvinism and the problem of evil pg 204.205

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them
Calvin

Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Good question Tom???
Who do you think???

Good point!
so you therefore affirm with Talbot and others

Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

conbtrary to scripture

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”
 

Sketo

Well-known member

armylngst

Active member
Have you ever sinned ?

Was God's decree the cause of your sin or were you
You look at yourself too much. You need to look at God, and stop beating the poor strawman to death.
Have you ever had an sinful thought or desire ?

Was God decree the cause of your sinful thought or desire or were you ?
Does the strawman have any limbs left?
Have you ever been tempted with sin ?

Was God's decree the reason for your temptation ?

or was there another source

If you say God

You contradict scripture
I'm pretty sure the strawman's head just flew past me.
James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

If you affirm your own culpability and exonerate God you contradict creeds which claim God has decreed everything that happens
and attribute to God's decree ultimate sufficient cause for all things

reflected in statements similar to the one below by Dr. James N. Anderson

“For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].
You need to step back and remember that God created everything that is, the whole universe, all the galaxies, every last bit was created by God. Every particle, everything. It is all beneath God. As such, that means He is in control of all of it, and you need to rationally figure out exactly what that means, because your strawman ain't it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I affirm what I clearly stated...

See... I already answered!


Your turn Tom!!

Who do you think???

Good point!

And who determined man would have a sin nature TomFL?
Hello God

i already pointed that out

How come you do not deal with the scriptures which show your view that God is the cause of all of man's sin is unbiblical

so you therefore affirm with Talbot and others

Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

conbtrary to scripture

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”

and just ignore it ?
 

armylngst

Active member
I affirm what I clearly stated...

See... I already answered!


Your turn Tom!!

Who do you think???

Good point!

And who determined man would have a sin nature TomFL?
With someone's belief that has pelagianism as part of it (semi), I do wonder what Tom's answer will be. What semi part of pelagianism does he hold to?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I affirm what I clearly stated...

See... I already answered!


Your turn Tom!!

Who do you think???

Good point!

And who determined man would have a sin nature TomFL?
So where have you deal with te scripture provided to show your view false


after you affirmed with



Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

God as the cause of all of mans sin

contrary to scripture

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”

Why did you avoid dealing with these verses ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You look at yourself too much. You need to look at God, and stop beating the poor strawman to death.

Does the strawman have any limbs left?

I'm pretty sure the strawman's head just flew past me.

You need to step back and remember that God created everything that is, the whole universe, all the galaxies, every last bit was created by God. Every particle, everything. It is all beneath God. As such, that means He is in control of all of it, and you need to rationally figure out exactly what that means, because your strawman ain't it.
Creation does not account for God determining every sinful act thought and deed of man

If you hold to the meticulous determination of all things then that includes all the evil that is in the world

and that is not a strawman about what you personaly believe. It is just a logical conclusion of what the claim God meticulously determines all things entails

If that is claimed then it encompasses all the evil that has transpired

c
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Creation does not account for God determining every sinful act thought and deed of man

If you hold to the meticulous determination of all things then that includes all the evil that is in the world

and that is not a strawman about what you personaly believe. It is just a logical conclusion of what the claim God meticulously determines all things entails

If that is claimed then it encompasses all the evil that has transpired
Check for yourself if TomFL’s claim is true...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Check for yourself...
Are you ever going to address the scriptures posted which show the idea that God is the cause of all of man's sin is false

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”

Why did you avoid dealing with these verses ?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Are you ever going to address the scriptures posted which show the idea that God is the cause of all of man's sin is false

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”

Why did you avoid dealing with these verses ?
There is nothing to deal with Tom you and I both agree that God is the answer to your question...
And who determined man would have a sin nature ?
Who do you think???
And who determined man would have a sin nature TomFL?
Hello God

i already pointed that out

Case closed!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sketo answered: God


TomFL answered: God


Apparently neither one of us can!

I don’t understand the disconnect...
The disconnect is that in your view God must logically have had determineed the fall

and thus the fall of mani

The disconnect is scripture shows God is not the cause of all of mans sin

If you will ever deal with it

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire xwhen it has conceived gives birth to sin, and ysin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James 1:16 ¶ Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
James 1:17 zEvery good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from athe Father of lights, bwith whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. wGod is faithful, and xhe will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—xthe desires of the flesh and ythe desires of the eyes and pride of life3—is not from the Father but is from the world.
 

armylngst

Active member
Creation does not account for God determining every sinful act thought and deed of man

If you hold to the meticulous determination of all things then that includes all the evil that is in the world

and that is not a strawman about what you personaly believe. It is just a logical conclusion of what the claim God meticulously determines all things entails

If that is claimed then it encompasses all the evil that has transpired

c
You still don't get it. The least that was determined by God, and it is still due to circumstance, is that man is bound by sin, incapable of doing or producing any amount of righteousness. Lost. Not seeking after God. Totally depraved. Yet in the midst of this, before the foundation of the world, God had chosen in Christ, those in whose life He would personally intervene and save. The apostle Paul's conversion experience was just a very visible showing of what is much more private for most believers, though some have experiences that are pretty showy. The reason given by God as to why none are righteous, none seek to be righteous or do good, and why none seek after God, is because they are too busy doing what they want to do. They have gone their own way, which is the complete opposite direction of where God is. Hence Jesus "with man it is impossible". Left to his own devices, no man would ever seek after God. However, if God interject Himself into their life, now that is the other part of what Jesus said "but with God, all things are possible." [to include salvation.] God is not forcing people to go to hell, He is just letting them go their merry own way [and universalism is a heresy, BTW]. Isn't that what a lot of people say they want, for God to leave them alone? Why do you have an issue if He says, sure?

The point at which you seem to build your strawman is that point where God does not explain Himself as to whether He determined what everyone would do, or just let them live. The part you have to understand is that God sees all and knows all, and you cannot do anything different. We are bound to His knowledge. He knows what you did, while also knowing what you are doing, and knowing what you will do. I am speaking of one single event. His knowledge is both past, present and future, for any one thing you do...all at the same time. He is omnipresent, which is to say He is everywhere. The problem is, you look at God temporally, and forget that His omnipresence includes the fact that He is present everywhere, at all points in time, at the same time. So I think the better way to be asking about how things work is if God wrote our lives out to the very last thing we do, or if we lived out our lives within the system God has created, bound to sin, incapable of doing or being righteous, because the system of the universe He created does not allow it, and we reap what we sow. God didn't choose to send people to hell, because they are perfectly capable of walking themselves there. He chose to intervene and save some from that fate. It is His right to do so, and He didn't have to save anyone at all, so you should realize that it is a miracle that anyone is saved at all. It cost the life of His Son. We do not get to set the rules for God, so please stop.

Your determinism argument is you dragging human philosophy into Christianity, and it determining what you say. That is not how it works. I believe God knows everything we will do, and we can do no other, or that means God is not God. I also believe that He has personally intervened in people's lives (as scripture says) to keep them blind to the truth of His salvation. I also believe that He did plan out Pharaoh's actions, as well as how He would treat Esau. You complete twisted the scripture that states that God has mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy. It is saying what it says it is saying, no matter how much you twist it. You need to study God, and stop giving Him human characteristics like the Greeks did to create their gods.
 
Top