Sins cannot be charged!

brightfame52

Well-known member
Theo

This verse is referring to the elect, to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
It implies that He WILL impute the sin of the reprobate on them
Agreed. I had already said it applies to the election. Isn't that who Christ died for according to the scriptures. Please read my op again
 

TomFL

Well-known member
1 Cor 15:3-4

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

If Christ died for our sins, for He didn't die for everyone's sins, but if we're blessed to be of those He did die for, namely His Sheep or Church, then one thing is for certain, our sins cannot and will not be charged to us.

Rom 4:8

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
You are aware this is what Paul preached to the Corinthians previous to their conversion ?

1 Corinthians 15 (KJV 1900)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Wrong! That does not logically follow.
But it does “logically follow”...

If Jesus accomplished the exact same for all... and NOT all are “saved”... then something other then what Jesus accomplished is what, you believe, makes the difference between heaven and hell.
Not correct. Those who are in heaven are there because of what Jesus accomplished

But you affirm above that he accomplished the exact same for those who are in hell... but they are not saved!

Now if I ask why they are not saved you will answer “Because they did not do something...”
but it becomes applicable only to those who choose to believe and repent.
There it is! “those who choose
Of course you would not say Jesus achieved this part... would you?
But you affirm that this part is necessary for one to be saved... wouldn’t you?




Utterly false and illogical. Jesus' Atonement is applicable to everyone without exception, but...
“applicable”...

only those are redeemed by it who choose to believe and repent.
Again you affirm this is not something Jesus accomplished but it is what makes the difference.
The reason why all are not, is because the choice is theirs whether to believe and repent or not, and unfortunately there are some who don't. But that is their choice. I has nothing to do with anybody else.
Including Jesus correct?

Wrong! You are saved by Jesus...
Your above statement contradicts this!
...but he only saves those who choose to believe and repent.
Now your back to saying they are saved by something they do... which is “something other than what Jesus accomplished”.
Jesus' Atonement does not save anyone unconditionally.
So... how does Jesus accomplish this condition in order to save them... or... is it left to them to accomplish this condition?
It only saves on condition of faith and repentance (and enduring to the end); and unfortunately, not all exercise that choice.
Why not?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are aware this is what Paul preached to the Corinthians previous to their conversion ?

1 Corinthians 15 (KJV 1900)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The our sins in 1 Cor 15:3 is the Body of Christ, or Sheep, or Chosen, or the Called.

In 1 Cor 1 that is made clear. The Called 1 Cor 1:23

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

αὐτοῖς δὲ τοῖς κλητοῖς Ἰουδαίοις τε καὶ Ἕλλησιν Χριστὸν θεοῦ δύναμιν καὶ θεοῦ σοφίαν·

We have the definite article by the word called, pointing out a certain definite group. This call isnt for everyone, sorry. The Our sins in 1 Cor 15:3 are these.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The our sins in 1 Cor 15:3 is the Body of Christ, or Sheep, or Chosen, or the Called.

In 1 Cor 1 that is made clear. The Called 1 Cor 1:23

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

αὐτοῖς δὲ τοῖς κλητοῖς Ἰουδαίοις τε καὶ Ἕλλησιν Χριστὸν θεοῦ δύναμιν καὶ θεοῦ σοφίαν·

We have the definite article by the word called, pointing out a certain definite group. This call isnt for everyone, sorry. The Our sins in 1 Cor 15:3 are these.
You missed the point

This is what Paul preached the gospel they received

1 Corinthians 15 (KJV 1900)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5

Paul preached to the as yet converted Corinthians Christ died for our sins

This is the gospel they received
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You missed the point

This is what Paul preached the gospel they received

1 Corinthians 15 (KJV 1900)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5

Paul preached to the as yet converted Corinthians Christ died for our sins

This is the gospel they received
No Im not missing any point, Im making my point which you missed !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No Im not missing any point, Im making my point which you missed !
You missed the point I was making

This is what Paul preached and the gospel they received

1 Corinthians 15 (KJV 1900)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5

Paul preached to the as yet converted Corinthians Christ died for our sins

This is the gospel they received
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sketo

It seems to me that you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for every individual, without distinction, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of something in particular that Jesus did... because... , you believe, he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!

Exactly !

This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished!

Very logical


Namely... “them having to do something to qualify”

If this is true then Jesus does not save anyone!

This would mean you are saved by “something other than Jesus”... if you end up in heaven!

The Bible says Jesus is the Savior but how can this be if what he accomplished for those in hell did not save them?
Very well stated !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
sketo



Exactly !



Very logical



Very well stated !
sketo



Exactly !



Very logical



Very well stated !
If the bible says Jesus is the savior of all men, the world why would you doubt it

John 4:41–42 (KJV 1900)
41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10–11 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

1 John 4:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Of course he need not be the savior of the world in the same sense he is the savior of all but he still is the savior of all in some sense
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If the bible says Jesus is the savior of all men, the world why would you doubt it

<sigh>

For the 27th time, we DON'T "doubt it".

We simply disagree on what is meant by "all men", since it does NOT say "all INDIVIDUALS".

Further, it is very telling that you are MISQUOTING that verse, by omitting the following QUALIFIER, "especially of those who BELIEVE".

... which gives further reason to reject your naive and biased interpretation.

John 4:41–42 (KJV 1900)
41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

And similarly, for the 27th time, we disagree on the meaning of what "world" means.
And you have misused the BDAG lexicon in trying to force your biased interpretation.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
If the bible says Jesus is the savior of all men, the world why would you doubt it

John 4:41–42 (KJV 1900)
41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10–11 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

1 John 4:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Of course he need not be the savior of the world in the same sense he is the savior of all but he still is the savior of all in some sense
Thats been dealt with. This thread is about some people, Gods Elect, because their sins have been charged to Christ already, thats why He died, for sins charged to Him, hence those folks are blessed because God will not impute their sins to them !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
<sigh>

For the 27th time, we DON'T "doubt it".

We simply disagree on what is meant by "all men", since it does NOT say "all INDIVIDUALS".

Further, it is very telling that you are MISQUOTING that verse, by omitting the following QUALIFIER, "especially of those who BELIEVE".

... which gives further reason to reject your naive and biased interpretation.



And similarly, for the 27th time, we disagree on the meaning of what "world" means.
And you have misused the BDAG lexicon in trying to force your biased interpretation.
Sorry you failed to show the especially all that believe means he does not love all men

and the world as well

Which the lexicons relate to all mankind

John 4:41–42 (KJV 1900)
41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10–11 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

1 John 4:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

and you are stuck with it
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
<sigh>

For the 27th time, we DON'T "doubt it".

We simply disagree on what is meant by "all men", since it does NOT say "all INDIVIDUALS".

Further, it is very telling that you are MISQUOTING that verse, by omitting the following QUALIFIER, "especially of those who BELIEVE".

... which gives further reason to reject your naive and biased interpretation.



And similarly, for the 27th time, we disagree on the meaning of what "world" means.
And you have misused the BDAG lexicon in trying to force your biased interpretation.
I wouldnt even address that with him. Thats been explained to him a zillion times, i know you have explained it to him before.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry you failed to show the especially all that believe means he does not love all men

Only in your uninformed and errant opinion.

In reality, YOU are the one who has "failed to show" that we're wrong.

Neither of us is going to change the mind of the other.

So the MATURE thing to do is to drop it, and simply "agree to disagree".
I'm mature.
How about you? Are you mature?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Thats been dealt with. This thread is about some people, Gods Elect, because their sins have been charged to Christ already, thats why He died, for sins charged to Him, hence those folks are blessed because God will not impute their sins to them !
Not sufficient I am afraid

John 4:41–42 (KJV 1900)
41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10–11 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

1 John 4:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

No one has shown all men is not really all men

and no one was able to refute the fact John's use of world includes unbelievers

John 12:47 (KJV 1900)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

or the lexical evidence which points to all mankind
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not sufficient I am afraid

John 4:41–42 (KJV 1900)
41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10–11 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

1 John 4:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

No one has shown all men is not really all men

and no one was able to refute the fact John's use of world includes unbelievers

John 12:47 (KJV 1900)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

or the lexical evidence which points to all mankind
So you going to spam up this thread. Thats childish. Do you have any comments about the OP ? Did you understand it
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Only in your uninformed and errant opinion.

In reality, YOU are the one who has "failed to show" that we're wrong.

Neither of us is going to change the mind of the other.

So the MATURE thing to do is to drop it, and simply "agree to disagree".
I'm mature.
How about you? Are you mature?
Sorry you failed to rebut the lexicons or John 12:47

and John's use of the term world

If fact you never even address it

So don't expect a pass
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So you going to spam up this thread. Thats childish. Do you have any comments about the OP ? Did you understand it
So you going to spam up this thread. Thats childish. Do you have any comments about the OP ? Did you understand it
Oh so replying to something you approved of is spam ?

The Bible says Jesus is the Savior but how can this be if what he accomplished for those in hell did not save them?
Very well stated !

Hello

If you bring up something you should not be surprised when it gets addressed

John 4:41–42 (KJV 1900)
41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10–11 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

1 John 4:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

No one has shown all men is not really all men

and no one was able to refute the fact John's use of world includes unbelievers

John 12:47 (KJV 1900)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

or the lexical evidence which points to all mankind
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Those Christ died for their sins will not be charged to them, not one of them even unbeiief. All for whom He died there's a promise that God will be merciful to all their unrighteousness Heb 8:12


12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

That covers it! This is through Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant in His Blood. Heb 8:6

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
But it does “logically follow”...
It doesn't.
If Jesus accomplished the exact same for all... and NOT all are “saved”... then something other then what Jesus accomplished is what, you believe, makes the difference between heaven and hell.


But you affirm above that he accomplished the exact same for those who are in hell... but they are not saved!

Now if I ask why they are not saved you will answer “Because they did not do something...”

There it is! “those who choose
Of course you would not say Jesus achieved this part... would you?
But you affirm that this part is necessary for one to be saved... wouldn’t you?


“applicable”...


Again you affirm this is not something Jesus accomplished but it is what makes the difference.

Including Jesus correct?


Your above statement contradicts this!

Now your back to saying they are saved by something they do... which is “something other than what Jesus accomplished”.

So... how does Jesus accomplish this condition in order to save them... or... is it left to them to accomplish this condition?
You are simply being illogical.
Because they have the choice. God has created them with the freedom, moral agency, and responsibility to make that choice for themselves.
 
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