Slave or Free ?

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guest1

Guest
The Greek word for slave is doulos. Scripture says the unregenerate, the lost, the unbeliever is a SLAVE to sin. They are OWNED by sin as their MASTER. They have no rights over SIN. They are under its authority.

So how is a person who is not freed from sin have any type of will that is free ?

The will of the unbeliever is in BONDAGE, OWEND, THE PROPERTY of SIN. Hence they are a SLAVE to SIN, its power- ENSLAVED to sin and have no freedom, no freedom of the will. Its complete bondage.

1401 doúlos (a masculine noun of uncertain derivation) – properly, someone who belongs to another; a bond-slave, without any ownership rights of their own. Ironically, 1401 /doúlos ("bond-slave") is used with the highest dignity in the NT – namely, of believers who willingly live under Christ's authority as His devoted followers.

conclusion: one must change the meaning of slave to have a free will.

hope this helps !!!
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
civic said:
1401 doúlos (a masculine noun of uncertain derivation) – properly, someone who belongs to another; a bond-slave, without any ownership rights of their own. Ironically, 1401 /doúlos ("bond-slave") is used with the highest dignity in the NT – namely, of believers who willingly live under Christ's authority as His devoted followers.

conclusion: one must change the meaning of slave to have a free will.
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Yep, you have to watch which translations you use, and this is why it is a good habit to use multiple translations when you study.

As you say, the Greek word "doulos" means "slave".
It is what Onesimus was, to Philemon.
It was what the Jews were, in Egypt.

But some translations will translate "doulos" merely as "servant", to dilute the meaning.
The Greek term for willing "servant" is "diakanos", from which we get the position of "deacon".

Note:
Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants [douloi] of sin, (KJV)
Rom. 6:17 But othanks be to God, that you who were once slaves [douloi] of sin (ESV)
Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves [douloi] to sin, (NET)
 
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SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Yep, you have to watch which translations you use, and this is why it is a good habit to use multiple translations when you study.

As you say, the Greek word "doulos" means "slave".
It is what Philemon was, to Onesimus.
It was what the Jews were, in Egypt.

But some translations will translate "doulos" merely as "servant", to dilute the meaning.
The Greek term for willing "servant" is "diakanos", from which we get the position of "deacon".

Note:
Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants [douloi] of sin, (KJV)
Rom. 6:17 But othanks be to God, that you who were once slaves [douloi] of sin (ESV)
Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves [douloi] to sin, (NET)
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But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin,[NASB]
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G

guest1

Guest
PeanutGallery said:
How does that prevent them for calling out to a deliverer or saviour?
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ask the slave ?

what freedom does a slave have to call out to its owner to set them free ?

empty words.............................................................................

Hey but I'll bet you will come up with a 1001 questions to deny the reality of a slave of sin has any choice other than sin.
 
zerinus

zerinus

Well-known member
civic said:
The Greek word for slave is doulos. Scripture says the unregenerate, the lost, the unbeliever is a SLAVE to sin. They are OWNED by sin as their MASTER. They have no rights over SIN. They are under its authority.

So how is a person who is not freed from sin have any type of will that is free ?

The will of the unbeliever is in BONDAGE, OWEND, THE PROPERTY of SIN. Hence they are a SLAVE to SIN, its power- ENSLAVED to sin and have no freedom, no freedom of the will. Its complete bondage.

1401 doúlos (a masculine noun of uncertain derivation) – properly, someone who belongs to another; a bond-slave, without any ownership rights of their own. Ironically, 1401 /doúlos ("bond-slave") is used with the highest dignity in the NT – namely, of believers who willingly live under Christ's authority as His devoted followers.

conclusion: one must change the meaning of slave to have a free will.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
How do you square that with this:

Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation [and religion] he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
civic

The Greek word for slave is doulos. Scripture says the unregenerate, the lost, the unbeliever is a SLAVE to sin. They are OWNED by sin as their MASTER. They have no rights over SIN. They are under its authority.
Click to expand...

And this applies to unbelief. By nature we are imprisoned in unbelief, a slave to it. Paul writing about the jew and gentile elect in their pre conversion state writes Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded is sygkleiō:

  1. to shut up together, enclose
    1. of a shoal of fishes in a net
  2. to shut up on all sides, shut up completely
completely subject to it:

And yet proud man believes he can exercise his so called freewill unto belief or faith !
 
Joe

Joe

Well-known member
civic said:
The Greek word for slave is doulos. Scripture says the unregenerate, the lost, the unbeliever is a SLAVE to sin. They are OWNED by sin as their MASTER. They have no rights over SIN. They are under its authority.

So how is a person who is not freed from sin have any type of will that is free ?

The will of the unbeliever is in BONDAGE, OWEND, THE PROPERTY of SIN. Hence they are a SLAVE to SIN, its power- ENSLAVED to sin and have no freedom, no freedom of the will. Its complete bondage.

1401 doúlos (a masculine noun of uncertain derivation) – properly, someone who belongs to another; a bond-slave, without any ownership rights of their own. Ironically, 1401 /doúlos ("bond-slave") is used with the highest dignity in the NT – namely, of believers who willingly live under Christ's authority as His devoted followers.

conclusion: one must change the meaning of slave to have a free will.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Good post, civic!

How does one who is in bondage to sin not choose Christ IF the Arminian position is true that the grace of God overcomes the sinful inclinations of a sinners heart and frees their will from the power of sin to choose either to stay in sin or Christ? Who in their right mind would choose sin and death over Christ and life?

I read nothing in the bible where God temporarily lifts the power of sin and death from a person so they can choose what they want Him to do.

I do read God electing people and bringing His elect to Christ where by His grace they repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

God makes the unwilling willing by updating their willer...“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. “And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances." (Eze 36:25-27)

The verses from Ezekiel clearly state who is the doer and who is the one being done over.

God bless
 
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TomFL

Guest
civic said:
The Greek word for slave is doulos. Scripture says the unregenerate, the lost, the unbeliever is a SLAVE to sin. They are OWNED by sin as their MASTER. They have no rights over SIN. They are under its authority.

So how is a person who is not freed from sin have any type of will that is free ?

The will of the unbeliever is in BONDAGE, OWEND, THE PROPERTY of SIN. Hence they are a SLAVE to SIN, its power- ENSLAVED to sin and have no freedom, no freedom of the will. Its complete bondage.

1401 doúlos (a masculine noun of uncertain derivation) – properly, someone who belongs to another; a bond-slave, without any ownership rights of their own. Ironically, 1401 /doúlos ("bond-slave") is used with the highest dignity in the NT – namely, of believers who willingly live under Christ's authority as His devoted followers.

conclusion: one must change the meaning of slave to have a free will.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Where does the bible say enslaved to sin means you cannot confess that you are a slave

Where does it say you cannot respond to God’s gracious initiative or that you cannot know and respond to the truth

John did not think so

John 20:31 —ESV

“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

John 5:24 —ESV

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

In any case the bible speaks of free will

Ezra 7:13 —KJV

“I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.”

Psalm 119:108 (YLT)

108 Free-will-offerings of my mouth, Accept, I pray Thee, O Jehovah, And Thy judgments teach Thou me.



1 Corinthians 9:17 (ANT)

For if I do this work of my own free will, then I have my pay (my reward); but if it is not of my own will, but is done reluctantly and under compulsion, I am [still] entrusted with a [sacred] trusteeship and commission.



2 Corinthians 8:17 (GW)

17 He accepted my request and eagerly went to visit you by his own free will.



Isaiah 52:4 (GNB)

4When you went to live in Egypt as foreigners, you did so of your own free will; Assyria, however, took you away by force and paid nothing for you.

Philem. 1:14 —ASV

“but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.”





 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Where does the bible say enslaved to sin means you cannot confess that you are a slave

Where does it say you cannot respond to God’s gracious initiative or that you cannot know and respond to the truth

John did not think so

John 20:31 —ESV

“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

John 5:24 —ESV

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

In any case the bible speaks of free will

Ezra 7:13 —KJV

“I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.”

Psalm 119:108 (YLT)

108 Free-will-offerings of my mouth, Accept, I pray Thee, O Jehovah, And Thy judgments teach Thou me.



1 Corinthians 9:17 (ANT)

For if I do this work of my own free will, then I have my pay (my reward); but if it is not of my own will, but is done reluctantly and under compulsion, I am [still] entrusted with a [sacred] trusteeship and commission.



2 Corinthians 8:17 (GW)

17 He accepted my request and eagerly went to visit you by his own free will.



Isaiah 52:4 (GNB)

4When you went to live in Egypt as foreigners, you did so of your own free will; Assyria, however, took you away by force and paid nothing for you.

Philem. 1:14 —ASV

“but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.”

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A dead person cant confess. Confession is agreeing with God in Spiritual matters, to say the same thing. Man Naturally is dead to God Spiritually and is at enmity against God, and cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:14
 
S

shnarkle

Well-known member
civic said:
conclusion: one must change the meaning of slave to have a free will.
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I'm not sure how this works. How or why would redefining a word enable one to have free will? If I'm reading this correctly, what you're really saying is that simply redefining words will not enable us to have free will, no?
 
ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
shnarkle said:
I'm not sure how this works. How or why would redefining a word enable one to have free will? If I'm reading this correctly, what you're really saying is that simply redefining words will not enable us to have free will, no?
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Well the 2nd LBCF says we have Liberty of the Will, and Violence from God is not offered to our Will; we are true Causes in our life...
 
ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
shnarkle said:
I'm not sure how this works. How or why would redefining a word enable one to have free will? If I'm reading this correctly, what you're really saying is that simply redefining words will not enable us to have free will, no?
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Is Passive Aggressiveness Liberty of the Will or Bondage of the Will?

Passive Aggressive ~ by Reverend RV

Psalm 55:21 KJV; The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.

Our verse is a prime example of a behavior known as Passive Aggressiveness. Its definition is “Marked by, or displaying behavior characterized by expressing negative feelings, resentment, and aggression in an unassertive passive way”. ~ Our words can be flattering on the outside but on the inside we’re ready to fight. Have you heard the example of a little child who is told to sit in his chair but doesn’t want to; he sits down but on the inside he’s standing up in spite of you. I’m sure we all know what Passive Aggressiveness is and admit we’ve all been there; but isn’t it the lesser of two evils? Maybe, but maybe not; what a man thinks about himself, that’s what he is. The Heart is more deceitful than anything and is desperately wicked; as we shall soon see. But as deceitful as the Heart is, it reveals the ‘true you’. The only thing your Heart can prove to you is what you are really like when you can’t have your way, and someone else’s way wins the day; then you become Passive Aggressive, right?

Is Passive Aggressiveness the same as Lying on the inside? Have you been told to do something and did it; but begrudgingly? What are you doing in your heart that you want to do in real life, but can’t? Have you ever committed Adultery? Jesus said that if you have looked at a woman Lustfully, you’ve committed Adultery with her in your Heart; that’s Passive Aggressive molestation! Have you ever Hated anyone? Jesus said if you’ve Hated your brother, you’ve Murdered him in your Heart. Lying, Adultery and Murder are but three of the Ten Commandments, do we need to go on? If God judged by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven; or will you go to Hell?

God Saves Sinners! For God so loves the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life instead. Jesus Christ is God Incarnate and he lived a Holy life which pleased God his Father, by keeping the Ten Commandments his whole life. He paid the price that our Sin deserves by dying on the Cross of Rome, and he arose from the grave for all who believe. We’re Saved by the Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness of God through our Faith in the risen Christ, without our Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and start going to a Bible believing Church. ~ Christians can be Passive Aggressive without even knowing it. If a Christian is inactive in supporting the spreading of the Gospel, God looks at it as if we’re proactively scattering Lost Souls; “Get out of my way, I’m going to Church!”. The Lost are like cordwood which the Devil stacks by the fires of Hell; our inactivity means we proactively stack the Devil’s cordwood for him! ~ Will you remain Passive Aggressive toward God now that you know this?

Matthew 12:30 NIV; "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
 
S

shnarkle

Well-known member
ReverendRV said:
Is Passive Aggressiveness Liberty of the Will or Bondage of the Will?
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Passive Aggressiveness is bondage of the will. What's your point? I asked a simple question in hopes that it could be answered simply. Perhaps you're saying that if we redefine passive aggressiveness, we can be liberated as well? I'm at a complete loss to grasp what you're trying to say.
 
ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
shnarkle said:
Passive Aggressiveness is bondage of the will. What's your point? I asked a simple question in hopes that it could be answered simply. Perhaps you're saying that if we redefine passive aggressiveness, we can be liberated as well? I'm at a complete loss to grasp what you're trying to say.
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Sorry. My point is that Calvinists believe in the Liberty of the Will, even when they say they do not. Ask the OP to show you that Arminius doesn't believe the Will is Free. My point is that both sides kind of say the same thing; the Will is at liberty, and the Will is not Free...

Please don't get frustrated with me, I know it's easy when we're on-line. I usually try to answer questions directly but I'm not perfect. I promise to try though...
 
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