Soft Model of Libertarian Free Will

shnarkle

Well-known member
True to a short extent, yet ones confessed gospel, i.e. one version teaching that they've met conditions in order to be merited the grace of salvation, i.e. "conditional election" (a denial of biblical grace/unmerited favor) shows they've believed and adhere to a false understanding, and to a false gospel. It is then a false hope based upon a false message.
And I would assume that they're not saved, elect, etc. Even so, God can save them regardless if they understand or not.
So ones understanding in fact does determine
Fallacy of the Non-Sequitur. Again, one can have perfect understanding, and still be damned. Likewise, there are plenty of people who have no clue, and the world looks at this as ridiculous how someone who will never understand could possibly be saved, or elect. God doesn't choose the brightest, but quite often those who are inept, and fools to show God's glory.
 

fltom

Well-known member
How did you obey the command to believe without the Spirit per verse 27? You want to talk verse 27? Let's. So how??
Are you finally confessing that that God putting his Spirit in you speaks of the indwelling of the Spirit ?

The bible does not teach it is necessary to be indwelt by the Spirit to believe
 

fltom

Well-known member
He doesn't accept the fact that while dead in trespasses, God, not the one dead in trespasses, made the dead alive. To the contrary he thinks, believes, preaches, and teaches he made himself alive, because he believed, repented, humbled himself, while dead, and therefore merited the grace of salvation.

That is a false gospel.

@fltom you and your teacher Flowers are Catholic at heart, teaching merited grace. Both of you are steeped in heresy.
There you go again falsely reporting what I claim

Time after time you disingenuously distort my views

Scripture is not heresy. It is contradiction to scripture which is heresy

This is scripture


John 20:31 (ESV)
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:40 (ESV)
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Man does not make himself alive God does when a man believes

If you deny it you are the heretic

but you will probably just ignore it as you often do
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Are you finally confessing that that God putting his Spirit in you speaks of the indwelling of the Spirit ?

The bible does not teach it is necessary to be indwelt by the Spirit to believe
What I am confessing is you refuse to answer a question.

Did you obey the command to believe without the Spirit? You wanted to discuss verse 27 so let's. Did you?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Are you finally confessing that that God putting his Spirit in you speaks of the indwelling of the Spirit ?

The bible does not teach it is necessary to be indwelt by the Spirit to believe
Again, verse 27, the verse you accused me of ignoring. You remember right? So did you obey the command to believe without the Spirit?
 

fltom

Well-known member
Again, verse 27, the verse you accused me of ignoring. You remember right? So did you obey the command to believe without the Spirit?
Without the indwelling of the Spirit

of course

Men must believe to receive the Spirit

John 7:38-39 (ESV)
38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Galatians 3:14 (ESV)
14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Acts 2:38 (ESV)
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

your idea that God puts his spirit in unbelievers is a heresy
 

fltom

Well-known member
What I am confessing is you refuse to answer a question.

Did you obey the command to believe without the Spirit? You wanted to discuss verse 27 so let's. Did you?
read

 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
read

Answer: Did you obey the command to believe without the Spirit per verse 27? You wanted to discuss it so let's. Don't run yet Forrest
 

fltom

Well-known member
Answer: Did you obey the command to believe without the Spirit per verse 27? You wanted to discuss it so let's. Don't run yet Forrest
Did you have a problem reading


read before you ask question
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Did you have a problem reading


read before you ask question
Did you believe without the Spirit per verse 27? You wanted to go to verse 27 and now your running. Was that a yes or no?
 

fltom

Well-known member
Did you believe without the Spirit per verse 27? You wanted to go to verse 27 and now your running. Was that a yes or no?
What could you not understand ?

Without the indwelling of the Spirit ?

of course

The idea God puts his Spirit in men so they become believers is your heresy alone
 

Predestined

Well-known member
One's understanding of doctrines is not what determines or assures one is saved, elect, etc. Satan can quite readily understand the doctrine, yet he isn't saved or elect either.
Satan understands the whole ball of wax and yet that will not change his eternal destination. God's sovereignty is what determines that. Sound doctrine tells us what God is like so that we may love him more. And sound doctrine is an important guard for interpreting Scripture. It helps ensure that we confess and delight in all that Scripture teaches, rather than setting one passage against another or drawing conclusions from one passage that contradict another. Let me give you an example.

The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector

Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This Pharisee believed that his righteous in and of himself and by his works made righteous in God's sight.

‘God, I thank thee because I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. (That I'm so much better, see all I do) I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I possess.’​

But...the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but he beat upon his chest saying, (he knew who he was before a holy God and that he needed a Savior) he knew in and of himself he would always be lost unless God intervened. He knew the truth and he went down to his house made righteous.

Moral of the story...

For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, (lifts himself up by claiming he has the ability and the right to choose God because is better than everyone else).​

And he who humbles himself will be exalted.

But He gives [us] more unearned favor [i.e., to overcome the world]. Therefore, the Scripture says [Prov. 3:34], "God opposes proud people, but gives unearned favor to those who are humble."

Therefore, it says, “God is opposed to the proud and haughty, but [continually] gives [the gift of] grace to the humble [who turn away from self-righteousness].”

That's the really bad news about believing that you choose God as opposed to him choosing you. If you think that you can choose God you must believe that he owes salvation to you and nothing could be further from the truth. You won't be going home justified. (See doctrine of justification)

Understanding correct doctrine is not what saves you but it sure helps in your sanctification. (See doctrine of sanctification) Yeah buddy sanctification.... more doctrine, just can't get away from that stuff. I'm clean... clean from the inside out.... salvation's what I'm talking about. (See doctrine of salvation)
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
There you go again falsely reporting what I claim

Time after time you disingenuously distort my views

Scripture is not heresy. It is contradiction to scripture which is heresy

This is scripture


John 20:31 (ESV)
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:40 (ESV)
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Man does not make himself alive God does when a man believes

If you deny it you are the heretic

but you will probably just ignore it as you often do
Romans 8 makes it pretty clear that no one can please God. It is only after one has received the gift of repentance, and become a new creation that it is possible to believe. The carnal man cannot believe. If he could the very act would save himself.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Satan understands the whole ball of wax and yet that will not change his eternal destination. God's sovereignty is what determines that. Sound doctrine tells us what God is like so that we may love him more. And sound doctrine is an important guard for interpreting Scripture. It helps ensure that we confess and delight in all that Scripture teaches, rather than setting one passage against another or drawing conclusions from one passage that contradict another. Let me give you an example.

The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector

Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This Pharisee believed that his righteous in and of himself and by his works made righteous in God's sight.

‘God, I thank thee because I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. (That I'm so much better, see all I do) I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I possess.’​

But...the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but he beat upon his chest saying, (he knew who he was before a holy God and that he needed a Savior) he knew in and of himself he would always be lost unless God intervened. He knew the truth and he went down to his house made righteous.

Moral of the story...

For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, (lifts himself up by claiming he has the ability and the right to choose God because is better than everyone else).​

And he who humbles himself will be exalted.

But He gives [us] more unearned favor [i.e., to overcome the world]. Therefore, the Scripture says [Prov. 3:34], "God opposes proud people, but gives unearned favor to those who are humble."

Therefore, it says, “God is opposed to the proud and haughty, but [continually] gives [the gift of] grace to the humble [who turn away from self-righteousness].”

That's the really bad news about believing that you choose God as opposed to him choosing you. If you think that you can choose God you must believe that he owes salvation to you and nothing could be further from the truth. You won't be going home justified. (See doctrine of justification)

Understanding correct doctrine is not what saves you but it sure helps in your sanctification. (See doctrine of sanctification) Yeah buddy sanctification.... more doctrine, just can't get away from that stuff. I'm clean... clean from the inside out.... salvation's what I'm talking about. (See doctrine of salvation)
Interesting verses

For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, (lifts himself up by claiming he has the ability and the right to choose God because is better than everyone else).

And he who humbles himself will be exalted.

But He gives [us] more unearned favor [i.e., to overcome the world]. Therefore, the Scripture says [Prov. 3:34], "God opposes proud people, but gives unearned favor to those who are humble."

Therefore, it says, “God is opposed to the proud and haughty, but [continually] gives [the gift of] grace to the humble [who turn away from self-righteousness].”

One Calvinist claimed that is teaching grace is merited

but it is not
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Satan understands the whole ball of wax and yet that will not change his eternal destination.
Likewise, no one else's understanding is fundamental to salvation. One's understanding cannot stand under the fundamental reality of salvation, or election.
God's sovereignty is what determines that.
Agreed. Therefore, one's understanding is of no consequence. There is the faith one understands, and then there is faith seeking understanding. It is faith that is fundamental, not one's understanding. It is faith that saves, not one's understanding.
Sound doctrine tells us what God is like so that we may love him more.
The love of God implanted within the new creation is what allows us to truly know the love of God. Ezekiel 35:25-27
And sound doctrine is an important guard for interpreting Scripture.
True, yet beside the point.
It helps ensure that we confess
False. It ensures that one "profess" what one has learned. Confession comes from what one has witnessed of God's revelation.
This Pharisee believed that his righteous in and of himself and by his works made righteous in God's sight.​
Yep, and Pharisees were notorious for what they KNEW of God's word.


Moral of the story...

For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, (lifts himself up by claiming he has the ability and the right to choose God because is better than everyone else).​
And what better way to express that than though one's superior understanding of scripture?
And he who humbles himself will be exalted.
What better way to humble oneself than to admit that one's understanding is of no consequence?
If you think that you can choose God you must believe that he owes salvation to you and nothing could be further from the truth. You won't be going home justified. (See doctrine of justification)
Strawman argument. I've made no such claims anywhere.
Understanding correct doctrine is not what saves you
Thank you. You've finally conceded the point. Glad to see you've seen the error of your ways.
but it sure helps in your sanctification.
You're still putting the cart before the horse. God sanctifies and one's understanding is expanded as one is sanctified, not the other way around.

It's something that we all have to learn the hard way. We all eventually have to accept the fact that God does it all. We don't understand anything unless or until God reveals it to us when we're good and ready. That understanding is never what saves, sanctifies or glorifies anyone, but simply comes along with the territory.

it is only the carnal man who seeks to claim some sort of merit for himself, and claiming one's understanding is always one of the last merits the carnal man has to let go of.

It's a humbling experience, and one that is difficult for the intellectual, as well as the intellectual wann-be to let go of.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Romans 8 makes it pretty clear that no one can please God. It is only after one has received the gift of repentance, and become a new creation that it is possible to believe. The carnal man cannot believe. If he could the very act would save himself.
Romanns 8 ?

you mean perhaps

Romans 8:8 (KJV)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Was God pleased with Cornelius ?

Acts 10:1-4 (KJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

What scripture states pleases God

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Romanns 8 ?
Yes, Romans chapter 8
you mean perhaps

Romans 8:8 (KJV)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Was God pleased with Cornelius ?
Was he in the flesh?
Acts 10:1-4 (KJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

What scripture states pleases God

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So, please elaborate on this apparent contradiction you're presenting.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Yes, Romans chapter 8

Was he in the flesh?

No not when he feared God and prayed always

want to respond now

Acts 10:1-4 (KJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Was God pleased with Cornelius ?

So, please elaborate on this apparent contradiction you're presenting.


There is no contradiction

Cornelius was not controlled by his flesh when he feared God gave alms and prayed always

rather he appears to be someone who believed that he (God) is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

(as he prayed to him constantly)

which is what scripture states it takes to please God
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
No not when he feared God and prayed always

want to respond now
Respond to what? if Cornelius isn't acting according to the flesh, then he must be acting according to the Spirit.
Acts 10:1-4 (KJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Was God pleased with Cornelius ?
It's interesting that Luke provides this supplementary information later, e.g. "and of good report among all the nation of the Jews," A good report among the Jews could only mean that he was a law abiding citizen which most Christians seem to have a problem with.
There is no contradiction
I agree. So I don't know what your point was.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Respond to what? if Cornelius isn't acting according to the flesh, then he must be acting according to the Spirit.

Was God pleased with Cornelius

Acts 10:1-4 (KJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.


It's interesting that Luke provides this supplementary information later, e.g. "and of good report among all the nation of the Jews," A good report among the Jews could only mean that he was a law abiding citizen which most Christians seem to have a problem with.

I agree. So I don't know what your point was.
So was God pleased with Cornelius

Was he a saved man before his meeting with Peter ?
 
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