Soft Model of Libertarian Free Will

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I strongly disagree with Flowers on many things, but that "choice meats" quote was completely twisted and taken out of context by White. I listened to the original sermon, and Flowers was not at all saying what White made him say. That's flat out slander.
So it was said in what context??

What did he mean by "choice meats"?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
They always scream were taking him out of context. So, I have asked many times to no avail, in what context was the term "choice meats" used. I hope you like the sound of crickets
The context and meaning is clear, and they also believe the same, as their damnable heresy of conditional election, which they preach proves. Now if only they were so humanly bold in their flesh to admit salvation is a personal achievement as Leighton has stated. Nevertheless they are already there, as their teachings expose them as such, unbeknownst to them.
 

Kampioen

Active member
This is dumb. God is eternal and has always existed. There was not a day He "decided to create". This implies time of which God exists outside of. Tell Leighton back to the drawing board.
And this denies God's omniscience. At some point did God not know He would create the world? How could that be if He has always known it would exist? You and your hero are closet open theists.
You know Libertarians/Arminians believe God is omniscient over man's libertarian choices. So why don't you accuse them of open theism? Thus God is omniscient of His own libertarian choices. Omniscience is just static knowledge. It's not dependent on time. And God is timeless anyway. God is beyond us.
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
You know Libertarians/Arminians believe God is omniscient over man's libertarian choices. So why don't you accuse them of open theism? Thus God is omniscient of His own libertarian choices. Omniscience is just static knowledge. It's not dependent on time. And God is timeless anyway. God is beyond us.
God has libertarian choices? His choices are not bound to His divine nature? So He could lie then right?
 

Kampioen

Active member
" Kampioen said:
You know Libertarians/Arminians believe God is omniscient over man's libertarian choices. So why don't you accuse them of open theism? Thus God is omniscient of His own libertarian choices. Omniscience is just static knowledge. It's not dependent on time. And God is timeless anyway. God is beyond us. "
Reformedguy:
God has libertarian choices? His choices are not bound to His divine nature? So He could lie then right?
God had a moral nature that cannot lie. In nonmoral cases God is libertarian, such as whether to create the universe or not.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
God had a moral nature that cannot lie. In nonmoral cases God is libertarian, such as whether to create the universe or not.
Really? So your omniscience God could have made a decision to not create the universe despite knowing He would create the universe??
 

Kampioen

Active member
Really? So your omniscience God could have made a decision to not create the universe despite knowing He would create the universe??
You don't make sense. His knowing is His omniscience.

However, you make God pantheistic ie God is just as lockstep predetermined as we are.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
God had a moral nature that cannot lie. In nonmoral cases God is libertarian, such as whether to create the universe or not.
The phrase “God had a moral nature” doesn’t make sense!

“Morality” only applies to creation and only that part of creation that is under a “moral” law. This does not apply to The Transcendent Creator Law giver!

There is no law given to God such that he can be “moral” or “immoral”!

It is false to imply that God can not “lie” because he is a “moral creature”!

God can not lie because His Word Is Power!

Example:
For creature to state “There is a flying spaghetti monster on the other side of the moon” may or may not be true… but when God speaks, his word is of a different category than mere creature…

If God states “There is a flying spaghetti monster on the other side of the moon” it’s not in the category of “may or may not be” it is in the category of “IS TRUTH”!

God’s “word of power” manifests as “IS” such that it can never be a “lie”!

Genesis 1:3 “And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Hebrews 1:2-3 “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
The phrase “God had a moral nature” doesn’t make sense!

“Morality” only applies to creation and only that part of creation that is under a “moral” law. This does not apply to The Transcendent Creator Law giver!

There is no law given to God such that he can be “moral” or “immoral”!

It is false to imply that God can not “lie” because he is a “moral creature”!

God can not lie because His Word Is Power!

Example:
For creature to state “There is a flying spaghetti monster on the other side of the moon” may or may not be true… but when God speaks, his word is of a different category than mere creature…

If God states “There is a flying spaghetti monster on the other side of the moon” it’s not in the category of “may or may not be” it is in the category of “IS TRUTH”!

God’s “word of power” manifests as “IS” such that it can never be a “lie”!

Genesis 1:3 “And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Hebrews 1:2-3 “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

.from google ......
/
 

Kampioen

Active member
The phrase “God had a moral nature” doesn’t make sense!

“Morality” only applies to creation and only that part of creation that is under a “moral” law. This does not apply to The Transcendent Creator Law giver!

There is no law given to God such that he can be “moral” or “immoral”!

It is false to imply that God can not “lie” because he is a “moral creature”!

God can not lie because His Word Is Power!

Example:
For creature to state “There is a flying spaghetti monster on the other side of the moon” may or may not be true… but when God speaks, his word is of a different category than mere creature…

If God states “There is a flying spaghetti monster on the other side of the moon” it’s not in the category of “may or may not be” it is in the category of “IS TRUTH”!

God’s “word of power” manifests as “IS” such that it can never be a “lie”!

Genesis 1:3 “And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Hebrews 1:2-3 “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
God is good, and there is no law above God that has to tell God that. Goodness is a moral trait, so God can be moral despite your claim that it would have to mean there a law above God to judge Him that way.

Yes, so God's morality is just a fact too, just like your proof statement that God's not lying is just a fact.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Can Libertarian Freewillism explanation how one actually lands on the one particular decision finally decided upon?

Why option A instead of option B?

You would have to assume that this is an important/relevant question. Why it is done is not the question, but rather, what and whether it is done. The question of why Adam and Eve chose to disobey/disbelieve God's words is irrelevant.

Besides, your question is a philosophical question in itself, so the kettle calling the pot black is evidence of your argumentative hypocrisy!


Doug
 

Kampioen

Active member
Sounds like a philosophical design for a random chance dice game to me!
Maybe Flip-a-coin-ism!

Can Libertarian Freewillism explanation how one actually lands on the one particular decision finally decided upon?

Why option A instead of option B?

A better question - What within man determines the final willing option decided upon?

If you say “the will” then that just begs the question - how does “the will” come to the final option decided upon?

I only see random chance philosophy!
How does God choose A rather than B? Is He predetermined too?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
How does God choose A rather than B? Is He predetermined too?
Just like God is the non Created Creator God is also the non Determined Determiner.

God did not wake up one morning and find himself in a situation where he had to make a “choice”, Option A Create or Option B Not Create… but this is the reality we created creatures find ourselves in. These are the kind of things that differentiates Creator from Created.

God = Creator, Self Sustained Sustainer, Determiner
Creature = Created, Dependently Sustained, Determined

For more detail check out these time stamps…
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined

01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined and refuted
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation

Thread 'Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/free-will-meticulously-examined…-and-refuted.5746/
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
(1) If the reason for the choice is the chooser, then the principle of alternate possibilities is lost.
I assume that what follows is what establishes your point, so I won't comment on this yet...
The chooser is only one chooser at the moment of choice. The chooser cannot be another chooser, for the chooser is himself/herself.

Okay so far...and rather obvious!
The sum total of all the characteristics that describe the chooser is what makes the chooser the chooser.
What makes a chooser a chooser is having the authority to choose. Such authority is part of the Imago Dei. Adam had a choice of what source from which he could choose his food; he likewise could choose what he named the animals. Both of these choices were without hindrance or influence of God.


Thus, since the chooser is only himself/herself and not another self at the moment of choice, then there can be no other choice than what one chooser chooses.

This is a false dichotomy, for choice demands alternative options. That the finished act cannot be anything other than what it is, does not mean that the choice itself was necessary. That I wore a purple button down shirt today does not mean I had to necessarily do so!

Thus, soft libertarianism, upon consideration of the law of identity, is internally flawed and self-contradictory. It proclaims to have the ability to "choose to the contrary," but the contrary would require another self to make the contrary choice, if in fact the reason for the choice is the chooser.

I am not trying to support "soft libertarianism", for frankly, this is the first time I have heard the term, but your argument here assumes that the chooser necessarily has but one choice, which is the topic of dispute in itself. Thus, it appears to be circular in nature.


Doug
 

Kampioen

Active member
Just like God is the non Created Creator God is also the non Determined Determiner.

God did not wake up one morning and find himself in a situation where he had to make a “choice”, Option A Create or Option B Not Create… but this is the reality we created creatures find ourselves in. These are the kind of things that differentiates Creator from Created.

God = Creator, Self Sustained Sustainer, Determiner
Creature = Created, Dependently Sustained, Determined

For more detail check out these time stamps…
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined

01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined and refuted
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation

Thread 'Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/free-will-meticulously-examined…-and-refuted.5746/
If as you say God is the nondetermined determiner, then He had no choice but to choose A over B, just like us?

Or are you saying He could have libertarianly chosen A or B because He is not predetermined?
 
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Sketo

Well-known member
If as you say God is the nondetermined determiner, then He had no choice but to choose A over B, just like us?

No… You missed the point. God’s “choice” is different from man’s “choice”.

When we consider God, prior to creation, there was nothing that existed outside of God that could have moved him to create, so determinism is Logically impossible in the Eternal Realm. God is self-sufficient, self-sustained, self determined. God is not presented with “options” from outside of himself! For God, determinism is impossible and self-determinism is necessary.
God’s choices are “Active!

When we consider man in the finite realm, a realm that completely relies on God for its existence moment by moment. In the finite realm we observe the concept of determinism where one thing leading to the next thing, and to the next, and to the next. Creature is only presented with options from outside of himself. So in the finite realm self-determinism is logically impossible and determinism is necessary.
Creature’s choices are “Reactive!

Or are you saying He could have libertarianly chosen A or B because He is not predetermined?

God is the only true “free” being that is Active, self-sufficient, self-sustained, self-determined.
Creature is reliant on God, Reactive, God-dependent, God-sustained, Ultimately God-determined.

Creature can not “reach up” into the Eternal Realm and claim attributes of God for himself. Man is not “free” from God!


… when only God existed…

“Who has measured the Spirit of the LORD, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?” (Isa 40:13-14)
 
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