Soft Model of Libertarian Free Will

Kampioen

Well-known member
Creation was not cosmic chance. God knew from everlasting He would create, it is part of God's nature to do so. There was no "freedom" for God to do anything other than what He has eternally planned.
How do you know God didn't from everlasting already libertarianly have it planned? But the fact that God knows it was libertarian is the only thing that matters.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Straw herring.

<Chuckle>

So not only do you reject sola Scriptura, but you don't even know the difference between "straw-man", and "red herring", but are simply throwing around terms you don't even understand.

You were appealing to speculation ("How do you know that God doesn't do <X>"), and that is a clear denial of sola Scriptura.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
<Chuckle>

So not only do you reject sola Scriptura, but you don't even know the difference between "straw-man", and "red herring", but are simply throwing around terms you don't even understand.

It's just for irritating fun , like you do. I learned it from you.

You were appealing to speculation ("How do you know that God doesn't do <X>"), and that is a clear denial of sola Scriptura.

It is just meant to neutralize the previous person's philosophical argument.

Sola Scriptura doesn't mean there is no truth outside the Bible, neither does it mean we can't speculate. But it must just not contradict it.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sola Scriptura doesn't mean there is no truth outside the Bible, neither does it mean we can't speculate. But it must just not contradict it.

Sola Scriptura: We are to limit our belief to only that which is found in the Bible.

Heresy: "We can believe ANYTHING WE WANT, as long as it's not explicitly contradicted in the Bible".

Mormons claim that polytheism is "not contradicted by the Bible".
JW's claim that the denial of the deity of Christ is "not contradicted by the Bible".
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Sola Scriptura: We are to limit our belief to only that which is found in the Bible.

Heresy: "We can believe ANYTHING WE WANT, as long as it's not explicitly contradicted in the Bible".

Mormons claim that polytheism is "not contradicted by the Bible".
JW's claim that the denial of the deity of Christ is "not contradicted by the Bible".
Looks like another red herring.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
You can't show anything at all

Just as you could not dispute the verses I posted showing why God favors some

you are not able to dispute What I stated which was

In my system those God choses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

want to try to dispute that ?

Truth be told all you do is indulge in third person out of context quotes and ad hominem

and reading your views into scripture - eisegesis all the while ignoring what the harmony of the scriptures teaches;

pitting old testament against New testament and scripture against scripture
I am not arguing God favors some and not others.. I would not argue God does not show partiality when He chose the elect. It's certainly His perogative.

Right so where does it say God chose those who chose to believe Him. Your proof text does not say that.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I am not arguing God favors some and not others.. I would not argue God does not show partiality when He chose the elect. It's certainly His perogative.

Right so where does it say God chose those who chose to believe Him. Your proof text does not say that.
So you just indulged in ad hominem with your out of context third party choise meat comments

I knew that

Care to actually address 1Cor 1:21

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God saves those who believe

or the same teaching found

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

then you can deal with your confusion about what the New Covenant doctrine of the indwelling Spirit requires

Do you believe the old covenant contradicts the New ?

Believers today are under the old covenant ?

If you want to know what the New covenant teaches would you go to the New or the old Covenant ?

Finally show where the New covenant teaches unbelieving, unforgiven, unjustified children of wrath are indwelt by the Spirit turning them to believers as you theology requires
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
So you just indulged in ad hominem with your out of context third party choise meat comments

I knew that

Care to actually address 1Cor 1:21

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God saves those who believe

or the same teaching found

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

then you can deal with your confusion about what the New Covenant doctrine of the indwelling Spirit requires

Do you believe the old covenant contradicts the New ?

Believers today are under the old covenant ?

If you want to know what the New covenant teaches would you go to the New or the old Covenant ?

Finally show where the New covenant teaches unbelieving, unforgiven, unjustified children of wrath are indwelt by the Spirit turning them to believers as you theology requires
No. I stand by my choice meat comment because of the context in which it was used. Your hero is not the brightest bulb in the box.

He does save those who believe. Thanks captain obvious. What it does not say is that God's choice in election is based upon you first choosing to believe.

I woukd go to the Old which first prophesied the coming New Covenant. Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 33 and so fourth. You don't read it backwards genius.
Give us the order in Ezekiel 36 if you would please.
 

fltom

Well-known member
No. I stand by my choice meat comment because of the context in which it was used. Your hero is not the brightest bulb in the box.

He does save those who believe. Thanks captain obvious. What it does not say is that God's choice in election is based upon you first choosing to believe.

I woukd go to the Old which first prophesied the coming New Covenant. Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 33 and so fourth. You don't read it backwards genius.
Give us the order in Ezekiel 36 if you would please.
So you stand with ad hominem and out of context quotes for you will not deal with the biblical context upon which the quote was made

As for election Newsflash the bible never speaks of unconditional election to salvation

Hello

It is no where stated in the bible

what the bible does speak of is God saving those that believe

and of course you addressed none of this

then you can deal with your confusion about what the New Covenant doctrine of the indwelling Spirit requires

Finally show where the New covenant teaches unbelieving, unforgiven, unjustified children of wrath are indwelt by the Spirit turning them to believers as you theology requires

this you never even attempt for it is so ridiculously unbiblical it should not be taken seriously

As for your choise to go to the old covenant

it would have been appropriate for you to address this

Do you believe the old covenant contradicts the New ?

Believers today are under the old covenant ?

If you want to know what the New covenant teaches would you go to the New or the old Covenant ?

Ezekiel never mentions faith and concerns those who are his people

Ezekiel 36:8 (KJV)
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

Ezekiel 36:12 (KJV)
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Ezekiel 36:20 (NIV2011)
20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’

nothing there about enemies of God being turned into believers by the indwelling of the Holy spirit
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
So you stand with ad hominem and out of context quotes for you will not deal with the biblical context upon which the quote was made

As for election Newsflash the bible never speaks of unconditional election to salvation

Hello

It is no where stated in the bible

what the bible does speak of is God saving those that believe

and of course you addressed none of this

then you can deal with your confusion about what the New Covenant doctrine of the indwelling Spirit requires

Finally show where the New covenant teaches unbelieving, unforgiven, unjustified children of wrath are indwelt by the Spirit turning them to believers as you theology requires

this you never even attempt for it is so ridiculously unbiblical it should not be taken seriously

As for your choise to go to the old covenant

it would have been appropriate for you to address this

Do you believe the old covenant contradicts the New ?

Believers today are under the old covenant ?

If you want to know what the New covenant teaches would you go to the New or the old Covenant ?

Ezekiel never mentions faith and concerns those who are his people

Ezekiel 36:8 (KJV)
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

Ezekiel 36:12 (KJV)
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Ezekiel 36:20 (NIV2011)
20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’

nothing there about enemies of God being turned into believers by the indwelling of the Holy spirit
🥱👈 your boring me. Please give us the order given in Ezekiel 36:26,27. You don't go to the end of chapter and read backwards. You will learn that next year when your in the 4th grade.

I will stick by my choice meat comments until you tell me the context in which the choice meat used the term and why James White objected.

Where does it speak of conditional election? Show us we will wait
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
How do you know God didn't from everlasting already libertarianly have it planned? But the fact that God knows it was libertarian is the only thing that matters.
He wasn't free to do otherwise. God cannot do anything but what He has eternally planned.

He is that He is.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
He wasn't free to do otherwise. God cannot do anything but what He has eternally planned.

He is that He is.
Yes. But the plan may have been eternally libertarianly decided. But this doesn't have to mean God is time based. Go is as timeless as His omniscience.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
What defines a being as “moral”?
That is side stepping the issue. God, being God, is the standard for every quality that he possesses. God says "Be holy for I am holy", God says "Be perfect as you Father in heaven is perfect". What God is in being is the standard, and to not be like him is to be unholy, imperfect, and immoral. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; he is the standard against all else in existence.


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
so determinism is Logically impossible in the Eternal Realm. God is self-sufficient, self-sustained, self determined.
If determinism is impossible in the Eternal Realm, then God cannot be self determined. Self determination is still determination.

Doug
 

fltom

Well-known member
🥱👈 your boring me. Please give us the order given in Ezekiel 36:26,27. You don't go to the end of chapter and read backwards. You will learn that next year when your in the 4th grade.

I will stick by my choice meat comments until you tell me the context in which the choice meat used the term and why James White objected.

Where does it speak of conditional election? Show us we will wait
You are running from the issues

You were asked to

show where the New covenant teaches unbelieving, unforgiven, unjustified children of wrath are indwelt by the Spirit turning them to believers as you theology requires

why is it you cannot do so ?

As I stated

this you never even attempt for it is so ridiculously unbiblical it should not be taken seriously

As for your choice to go to the old covenant

it would have been appropriate for you to address this

Do you believe the old covenant contradicts the New ?

crickets

Believers today are under the old covenant ?

still more crickets

If you want to know what the New covenant teaches would you go to the New or the old Covenant ?

Why no answer to such a simple question

Ezekiel never mentions faith and concerns those who are his people

Ezekiel 36:8 (KJV)
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

Ezekiel 36:12 (KJV)
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Ezekiel 36:20 (NIV2011)
20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’

nothing there about enemies of God being turned into believers by the indwelling of the Holy spirit

but that is what you theology requires

and you cannot provide it

that points out the fact your theology is built upon a faulty foundation and is not consistent with the whole council of God

Rather you take one verse which you can read your theology into (it is never so stated) and then ignore the fact it is

contradicted by other scriptures previously pointed out

It is not a sound methodology rather being an effort to twist scripture to support what it does not
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
You are running from the issues

You were asked to

show where the New covenant teaches unbelieving, unforgiven, unjustified children of wrath are indwelt by the Spirit turning them to believers as you theology requires

why is it you cannot do so ?

As I stated

this you never even attempt for it is so ridiculously unbiblical it should not be taken seriously

As for your choice to go to the old covenant

it would have been appropriate for you to address this

Do you believe the old covenant contradicts the New ?

crickets

Believers today are under the old covenant ?

,What is the order given in Ezekiel 36? How long have I asked now?

Let me help oh ignorant one. Read along. Verse 26. new heart, new spirit within you, heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh. You with me so far choice meat? Verse 27, His Spirit is put within you and He moves you to follow His commands and decrees.

See how you do that? You try. Give us the choice meat Bibles order. What do you say? I am dealing with a little kid here
still more crickets

If you want to know what the New covenant teaches would you go to the New or the old Covenant ?

Why no answer to such a simple question

Ezekiel never mentions faith and concerns those who are his people

Ezekiel 36:8 (KJV)
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

Ezekiel 36:12 (KJV)
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Ezekiel 36:20 (NIV2011)
20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’

nothing there about enemies of God being turned into believers by the indwelling of the Holy spirit

but that is what you theology requires

and you cannot provide it

that points out the fact your theology is built upon a faulty foundation and is not consistent with the whole council of God

Rather you take one verse which you can read your theology into (it is never so stated) and then ignore the fact it is

contradicted by other scriptures previously pointed out

It is not a sound methodology rather being an effort to twist scripture to support what it does not
Please give us the order in Ezekiel 36 26 and 27
 
Last edited:

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Yes. But the plan may have been eternally libertarianly decided. But this doesn't have to mean God is time based. Go is as timeless as His omniscience.
Explain?exactly what you mean by libertarian decided.
Yes. But the plan may have been eternally libertarianly decided. But this doesn't have to mean God is time based. Go is as timeless as His omniscience.
Explain exactly what you mean by "eternally libertarianly decided".
 

fltom

Well-known member
,What is the order given in Ezekiel 36? How long have I asked now?

Let me help oh ignorant one. Read along. Verse 26. new heart, new spirit within you, heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh. You with me so far choice meat? Verse 27, His Spirit is put within you and He moves you to follow His commands and decrees.

See how you do that? You try. Give us the choice meat Bibles order. What do you say? I am dealing with a little kid here

Please give us the order in Ezekiel 36 26 and 27
You are still running and depending on an incomplete verse where faith is not mentioned

to ignore the clear new covenant data which shows only believers are indwelt by the Spirit

It is why you run from what was requested of you

show where the New covenant teaches unbelieving, unforgiven, unjustified children of wrath are indwelt by the Spirit turning them to believers as you theology requires

You cannot do so


Do you believe the old covenant contradicts the New ?

Apparently you are fearful of even addressing what should obviously be false


Believers today are under the old covenant ?

another absurdity you fail to address for it also further exposes your false approach

As a matter of fact your position goes beyond mere ignorance

and extends itself to willingly refusing to consider the whole council of God

This is the methodology of the cults

Find a verse you can read your theology into and ignore all that is contrary to it

and you cannot cover this up with ad hominem and out of context appeals to third party quotes

as this only further highlights your lack of scriptural support
 
Top