Sola Scriptura

[balshan]

No they weren't. As proof we have the scriptures themselves and the letters to these local churches where they were told how they were messing up and they had better get with the correct program, the correct program as defined by them - the ecclesiastical authority.

If as you say Peter was the first pope, then why are his written instructions ignored by your institution.

1 Peter 5

2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

Peter would not call your leaders shepherds.

 

[Nondenom40]

No they weren't. As proof we have the scriptures themselves and the letters to these local churches where they were told how they were messing up and they had better get with the correct program, the correct program as defined by them - the ecclesiastical authority.

Yes they were. A number of Paul's letters were to churches he founded and he is answering questions or dealing with discipline issues. These were young churches and Paul was their father, just as he said. There simply was no institution they turned to for guidance. Paul WAS their guide not some entity with an 'infallible magesterium.' That never happened. When Paul cared for his churches he is doing so in a paternal way, not an authoritarian way.

 

[balshan]

Yes they were. A number of Paul's letters were to churches he founded and he is answering questions or dealing with discipline issues. These were young churches and Paul was their father, just as he said. There simply was no institution they turned to for guidance. Paul WAS their guide not some entity with an 'infallible magesterium.' That never happened. When Paul cared for his churches he is doing so in a paternal way, not an authoritarian way.

Paul wrote a lot of the NT, so much more than Peter. So technically shouldn't they claim Paul as the first pope. I mean he was the apostle to the gentiles, he was the main writer to the churches?

 

[mica]

Maxtar said:
No they weren't. As proof we have the scriptures themselves and the letters to these local churches where they were told how they were messing up and they had better get with the correct program, the correct program as defined by them - the ecclesiastical authority.

where did they get the 'program' that they taught? where did they get the authority they had?

 

[epiousios]

Does Roman Catholicism consider 'Sola Scriptura' to be a Protestant concoction?

As opposed to what?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

And yet the bible never declares the rcc as having authority in anything. Maybe that hurdle should be jumped first? Without that, the rest falls flat on its face.

Fine.

Which Church has authority then? The "Christian Church?" Where is this Church and who are its leaders?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

yet most catholics don't know the gospel, the RCC seldom mentions it. So what gospel does it 'hand on' and who does it 'hand it on' to?

His word never mentions the RCC or Peter as a pope.

catholics don't know who / what His church is.

etc

What do you think the pope is, if not the successor of Peter? What role do you think the pope has, if not that of Peter?

The office of the papacy is biblical--as it is based on Peter. If you want to know what the pope's role is and where it is in the Bible---LOOK AT THE PERSON OF PETER.

If you want to know what role the bishops have and where the Bible teaches the office of bishop---LOOK AT THE APOSTLES.

The Biblical basis for the papacy is PETER. The Biblical basis for the episcopacy is the APOSTLES.

 

[Nic]

What do you think the pope is, if not the successor of Peter? What role do you think the pope has, if not that of Peter?

The office of the papacy is biblical--as it is based on Peter. If you want to know what the pope's role is and where it is in the Bible---LOOK AT THE PERSON OF PETER.

If you want to know what role the bishops have and where the Bible teaches the office of bishop---LOOK AT THE APOSTLES.

The Biblical basis for the papacy is PETER. The Biblical basis for the episcopacy is the APOSTLES.

Even if Peter had an office so to speak, church structure is two dimensional; flat not vertical.

 

[mica]

mica said:
yet most catholics don't know the gospel, the RCC seldom mentions it. So what gospel does it 'hand on' and who does it 'hand it on' to?

His word never mentions the RCC or Peter as a pope.

catholics don't know who / what His church is.

etc

What do you think the pope is, if not the successor of Peter? What role do you think the pope has, if not that of Peter?

The office of the papacy is biblical--as it is based on Peter. If you want to know what the pope's role is and where it is in the Bible---LOOK AT THE PERSON OF PETER.

If you want to know what role the bishops have and where the Bible teaches the office of bishop---LOOK AT THE APOSTLES.

The Biblical basis for the papacy is PETER. The Biblical basis for the episcopacy is the APOSTLES.

you didn't answer my question - posted above in red.

 

[Nondenom40]

Fine.

Which Church has authority then? The "Christian Church?" Where is this Church and who are its leaders?

Read the n.t. The rcc is nowhere. That was the point of my statement. You want to move the goal posts. Stick with the n.t. for now. No rcc, no authority. Simple.

 

[Nondenom40]

What do you think the pope is, if not the successor of Peter? What role do you think the pope has, if not that of Peter?

The office of the papacy is biblical--as it is based on Peter. If you want to know what the pope's role is and where it is in the Bible---LOOK AT THE PERSON OF PETER.

If you want to know what role the bishops have and where the Bible teaches the office of bishop---LOOK AT THE APOSTLES.

The Biblical basis for the papacy is PETER. The Biblical basis for the episcopacy is the APOSTLES.

If the 'office' is biblical you shouldn't have a problem showing it to us. Which pastoral epistle details this office? Deacon, elder, overseer, apostle are all in the n.t. and described in detail. Papacy? Not a drop of ink.

 

[mica]

mica said:
yet most catholics don't know the gospel, the RCC seldom mentions it. So what gospel does it 'hand on' and who does it 'hand it on' to?

His word never mentions the RCC or Peter as a pope.

catholics don't know who / what His church is.

etc

What do you think the pope is, if not the successor of Peter? What role do you think the pope has, if not that of Peter?

a false leader / teacher. man made. he has no role in the life of a believer.

The office of the papacy is biblical--as it is based on Peter.

neither of those are true.

If you want to know what the pope's role is and where it is in the Bible---LOOK AT THE PERSON OF PETER.

no sign of popedom in Peter. the ccc is not the Bible.

If you want to know what role the bishops have and where the Bible teaches the office of bishop---LOOK AT THE APOSTLES.

catholic bishops are NOTHING like the apostles.

The Biblical basis for the papacy is PETER.

there is no bible basis for the papacy. Read the actual bible, not the ccc.

The Biblical basis for the episcopacy is the APOSTLES.

not those of the RCC. catholics know little of the apostles. read about them and what they wrote. the RCC bishops aren't even close to being like the apostles.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

If the 'office' is biblical you shouldn't have a problem showing it to us. Which pastoral epistle details this office? Deacon, elder, overseer, apostle are all in the n.t. and described in detail. Papacy? Not a drop of ink.

I just did show it. Get your eyes checked.

The biblical basis of the office of the papacy is Peter and the role he played in the Apostolic Church.

The biblical basis of the office of the episcopacy is the other apostles and the role they played in the Apostolic Church.

When you say that the papacy has no basis in the Bible, that is like saying there was no Peter--or if there was a Peter who followed Jesus, he did nothing.

When you say that the episcopacy has no basis in the Bible, that is like saying there were no apostles, or if there were apostles who followed Jesus they did nothing.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

no sign of popedom in Peter. the ccc is not the Bible.

So Peter played absolutely no leadership role in the Apostolic Church? Peter was not given the keys? That never happened?

Catholic bishops are NOTHING like the apostles.

This statement is too nebulous for me to respond intelligently.

there is no bible basis for the papacy. Read the actual bible, not the ccc.

I have read the Bible. There is clearly a guy named Peter who clearly leads the Apostolic Church. There are clearly apostles who clearly lead the Church with Peter.

not those of the RCC. Catholics know little of the apostles. read about them and what they wrote. the RCC bishops aren't even close to being like the apostles.

Again, too nebulous for me to respond. The Catholic bishops are nothing like the apostles? In what way?

 

[Nondenom40]

I just did show it. Get your eyes checked.

The biblical basis of the office of the papacy is Peter and the role he played in the Apostolic Church.

The biblical basis of the office of the episcopacy is the other apostles and the role they played in the Apostolic Church.

When you say that the papacy has no basis in the Bible, that is like saying there was no Peter--or if there was a Peter who followed Jesus, he did nothing.

When you say that the episcopacy has no basis in the Bible, that is like saying there were no apostles, or if there were apostles who followed Jesus they did nothing.

So you prefer the transubstantiation way of presenting facts? Nothing to see here, literally but theres your proof! You said there is an 'office' of the papacy. I asked where and youre like 'duh, peter of course'. Well that says absolutely nothing. Where oh where can i find the 'office' of overseer?

1 Tim 3
1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Where is THAT with respect to the papacy? Nowhere. Thank you. Why is it we can always find what we believe but catholics want to play the 'its there trust us' game?

 

[balshan]

Fine.

Which Church has authority then? The "Christian Church?" Where is this Church and who are its leaders?

Not yours. Jesus is the leader of the real church. Every real believer is:

Rom 1:7

to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The Holy Spirit will teach all believers:

1 John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Not yours. Jesus is the leader of the real church. Every real believer is:

Rom 1:7

to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The Holy Spirit will teach all believers:

1 John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

But that does not answer my question.

Which church or sect has authority? Where is the Church and who are its earthly leaders?

Here is another question: if the Holy Spirit teaches all believers, why do believers need human teachers?

 

[balshan]

But that does not answer my question.

Which church or sect has authority? Where is the Church and who are its earthly leaders?

Here is another question: if the Holy Spirit teaches all believers, why do believers need human teachers?

It would if you had any idea what the real church was. It certainly is a pure body not a body contaminated by sin as your institution is. Jesus is the earthly leader, do you think he has stopped leading. It certainly is not a group that ignore the screams, tears and heartbreak of children.

They don't need human teachers if they follow the teaching of the Holy Spirit except for Maths, Science, language .

 

[mica]

So Peter played absolutely no leadership role in the Apostolic Church? Peter was not given the keys? That never happened?

This statement is too nebulous for me to respond intelligently.

I have read the Bible. There is clearly a guy named Peter who clearly leads the Apostolic Church. There are clearly apostles who clearly lead the Church with Peter.

Again, too nebulous for me to respond. The Catholic bishops are nothing like the apostles? In what way?

still waiting for you to answer my question - see post 29

 

[mica]

mica said:

no sign of popedom in Peter. the ccc is not the Bible.

So Peter played absolutely no leadership role in the Apostolic Church?

re-read what I wrote. it doesn't say that.

the RCC is not the apostolic church.

Peter was not given the keys? That never happened?

re-read my post. does it mention the 'keys'?

This statement is too nebulous for me to respond intelligently.

just one simple sentence that you can't respond to.

I have read the Bible. There is clearly a guy named Peter who clearly leads the Apostolic Church. There are clearly apostles who clearly lead the Church with Peter.

you don't read it with a heart open to His truth, but in bondage to the RCC teachings.

He wasn't leader of the whole NT church. He didn't lead Paul or the others who taught the Gentiles or the Gentiles believers.

mica said:

not those of the RCC. Catholics know little of the apostles. read about them and what they wrote. the RCC bishops aren't even close to being like the apostles.

Again, too nebulous for me to respond. The Catholic bishops are nothing like the apostles? In what way?

again - simple sentences in my post.

other than being male, nothing alike. there are most likely RCC bishops who are homosexuals. none of the apostles were. They don't believe in or teach His word, the apostles believed His word and taught it. Jesus was their priority, He isn't for RCC bishops, the RCC is.